Not too long ago, Aaron Saxton posted a series of comments about ex-Scientologist Tory “Magoo” Christman that was a little harsh in its wording. I’ll admit that the comments made me a bit uncomfortable. I’m a big admirer of Tory, as I think she’s done a lot for the protest movement, and I certainly don’t want to offend her; unfortunately, that’s a consequence of this blog’s no-censorship policy. And Aaron does have a point – I myself am always a bit wary of people who oppose Scientology but support Marty Rathbun. Some people think independent Scientology is better than the Church, and is a stepping stone on the path to freedom; I don’t agree.
Anyway, Aaron posted a follow-up comment expanding more on why he feels the way he feels about Tory and others who support Marty Rathbun and/or Scientology in any form. I can’t speak to Tory’s mindset; I’m not an ex-Scientologist, or any sort of Scientologist. Aaron and Tory are. Regardless, Aaron makes some very valid points. Here are some excerpts from his comment (read the complete original here):
I know I am being rough on [Tory]. I am rough on anyone that supports Marty and then overtly supports his lies.
Anyone who supports Marty might as well support David Miscavige, or any other Executive of the Church – he is doing precisely what they do except he is not in a Sea Org Uniform and has as yet not established a way to exploit people on a large scale.
If people like Tory give him enough “street credit” and support, eventually he will have his own org and people will wonder how he was able to achieve it.
As for my own persecution in the Church, I was thoroughly aware of what I was doing to other people, knowing it was right to do this to those people based on the rationality of a system of beliefs that logically concluded through application of those beliefs that those actions were indeed 100% OK.
[Note from Caliwog: If you are not familiar with Aaron’s story, you can see it on YouTube; part 1 is here.]
I spent over a decade researching what happened to me and others and precisely why I did what I did.
If Tory and people like her actually understood what really happened to them, they would never give Marty the light of day – not even for one second.
A person who truly understands what is happening in Scientology in LRH’s form, DM’s form, David Mayo’s form, Otto Roos’ form or Marty’s form would never offer these people support of any kind.
Marty is evil. He really is. It is hard to comprehend just how nasty LRH really was – it takes as Scientologists would call it – a very severe adjustment in confront. Justifying it in ANY way or excusing any of his evil is wrong.
When you can understand the logic behind supporting Hitler to wipe out the Jews (and I am Jewish and most of my family tree was killed in camps or in Budapest under German, then later Russian rule). When you can understand the logic behind wiping out all Westeners if you are a Muslim, when you can understand the logic behind killing yourself with a group of several hundred people to travel to the celestial plains of a promised religious leader, then you are truly well armed to avoid it again. And, you are capable of seeing the true evil in these people that push from the top these beliefs knowing them to be false (like LRH, like Marty).
But it takes a lot to really understand it. Ironically, Scientology promised to its followers to understand the mind, engrams, the body and spirit to help them out – but it deliberately does the opposite.
Marty is doing this. Tory was doing this as a Scientologist. She may have changed her mechanism (Scientology) for playing out her problems, but she will find others. Marty is one of them, and this absolute lie about the [Church] program [against Tory] is an enabler of her triggers and Marty is playing on it not to help her, but to rope in more people.
Everything I have ever said about Marty has been true from the word go – because I know exactly what he is, I know the material that was used to create him – and it is NOT MATERIAL available to Scientologists, staff members or 99.5% of Sea Org members. Maybe 1 in 60 Messengers I knew had ever seen this guff. And this disgusting stuff was made by LRH for his top people that he needed to turn into monsters. Marty is a precise creation.
If I had not had help provided to me many years ago that got me onto the right track, I would be like Marty today but probably more effective. Remember, I did work for the SO in secrecy after I left for a while – I was anti-SO but not anti-Scientology. Like Marty.
Marty does not fool me one little bit. He never has. He fools others pretty good and it is sad Tory is one of them. Marty knows what I am talking about and I have had my share of his people come my way to swing me over his way.
No thanks. I am anti-Scientology through and through and will not in any way bend to accept their beliefs or policies or be nice about it. If you want that, go to Marty or ESMB – but here on Caliwog, I will call it as I see it.
Aaron Saxton
If you want to read Aaron’s original comment in full, you’ll find it here.
ML,
Caliwog
Caliwog's Blog 
Tory never really had a chance to depressurize. She jumped from Scientology to the Lisa McPherson Trust, which immediately began promoting her story.
I am at a loss, but will note that Tory wants to be friends with everybody.
Anonymous, Freezone or Marty’s Bozone, if there are exes about Tory will befriend them. I mean that in a good way, but going so far as to endorse and legitimize MR is counterproductive.
I think the Lisa McPherson trust did a great job of exposing Scientology for what it was. After all, Lisa clearly died as a result of LRH’s policies. That was a great organization and I’m sorry that Co$ eventually got to Bob Minton… but that’s what LRH intended.
I have to say that I think I understand the viewpoint of Tory, Jason Beghe and others, that being Independent is better than being a Church member. I respect these people, but I strongly, strongly disagree. I think a stepping stone is important; getting out of Scientology is a huge leap that many can’t make. But the idea that Independent Scientology is any different is just not the case. Unfortunately, Marty has a hell of a good PR machine — but the people who are on his good side don’t get to see that. And Marty’s a hell of a lot more visible than l’il ol’ Caliwog.
I honestly don’t understand how folks like Jason Beghe, who said “There is no clear,” and wisely referred to Scientology as “something that is empty,” can support Marty Rathbun who supports LRH. I’m hoping some day I’ll get to ask him, because that guy, like Tory, like Aaron, is a hero for speaking out.
ML,
Caliwog
thank you imominous thats kind of what i was trying to say just not very clever…
I will give you another example of misdirection:
Scientologists have their wits literally misdirected. Despite the vastly incredible statements by LRH on many subjects, there is no evaluation of any of it.
Here is an example of what some independents know of, but do nothing about:
When I was in the SO at CMO CW, we had a cadet called Sara. She was raped by two other recruits we had in the CMO EPF. As a result, we sent the recruits back to Mexico or another South American Country. With Sara, we grilled her and placed her in ethics conditions. She worked through her conditions. You see, it was her fault for the rape. She in some way agreed to it – as you do with anything that happens to you. Sort of like the Boxing Day Tsunami – “they all pulled it in”…back to my point…
Tom DeVocht (Marty and Miked Buddy) , Jenny Devocht (now DM’s Sex slave I presume), all of CMO CW staff and a few Int Execs knew of what happened at the time.
This is atrocious, and they all condoned it – but no one is talking about it. The FBI when I reported it were not interested. How do people get to a point where something like this is just “normal” to protect the good word of LRH?
How do Independents figure this sort of thing out? I am particularly upset by Jason Beige because he is an intelligent guy displaying some real idiocy – and he is in a prime position to nail it on the head. How does he go to Marty??? What about the other celeb, are they even capable of seeign what LRH did – fooled them hands down?
Jason says “there is no clear”. Well, how the fuck would he know? What, because he never obtained it and never saw anyone else obtain it? The lack of evidence does not mean there is no evidence.
For the pleasure of many readers, there is a condition of the brain through an enlarged area that causes PERFECT recollection of ALL MEMORIES. No, I am not referring to the other conditions that have as a side effect this ability for photographic memory. I am referring to a condition where by the person is 100% normal and the memories ARE NOT photographic, they are perfectly stored. Now, the point here is that there is a logical explanation.
Yet, in Scientology, one would call this a clear, would one not?
I do not what to hear from the likes of Jason (Am I not singling him out, I am using him as an example of mindset) etc. who simply dismiss Scientology or the Church because “It did not work them”. There is a reason why Clear and OT do not and could not and will never EVER exist – when those reasons are understood, then one understands truly what is evil about LRH and Scientology. Until then, it is opinion and hersay.
You have to understand what Scientology was actually up to.
These Freezeoners do not even understand that their minds – there brains – can be rigged to easily release chemicals into themselves that create delusion, altered memory and hallucinations, feeling of god like states that are all simply a state of the brain – and it is 100% real – and by real we mean what the brain tells the other part fo the brain (smaller self conciousness) what it experiencing.
LRH would tell you that your actual visual perception is created by the thetan being slightly in front of the eyes. Hogwash. I guess FZers could not even explain why they can only see visible light in their memories if they were exterior thetans. Then again, asking A scienotlogist or a FZer to even understand the difference between 200 nm and 700 nm of light is like asking them to build a nuclear weapon – they would not know the relevance of the question.
Now, these FZers like Marty are going into sessions and coming out feeling fantastic. They really are. They do not know why. But others do, and if they know why and control why, then we have a form of very serious mind control.
FZers always make the assumption that they would be “aware” if they were brainwashed – which they can not.
The one thing that they can investigate which may help them unlock what actually happened to them is to start spending some of that hard earned money they make working, and go off and buy books, or possibly go to University and spend a few years studying the brain.
They are so willing to spend their life savings, and decades in a Church or FZ movement being sucked in, thinking that the answers are not out there, when they actually are.
I learned a long time ago from someone who told me he knew about spirits, thetans, the brain, the mind, humans etc. and knew absolutely that Scientology was a haox along with a lot of other matters in this world.
I asked him “prove it”. He laughed and told me that unlike the gurus and cults I had been in, real knowledge is obtained through study, and anyone who rattles off the answers in a few paragraphs, or a mere few thousand pages, is lying to you.
He was right, cause it took over a decade to read enough of it to know finally what he was talking about. Tory, Jason, Marty, Mike, Tom and their clan will probably in the next 10 years read books on Scientology, other religions, and yet no one book that explains religions, explains mental states or mental health.
So to hell with them, we are raising a much smarter generation, which is why Scientology will fail.
I do ha a lot of admiration for Tory!
I do not understand why it is said that she support Marty and that she is fooled by him.
I think Tory is not anymore thinking the way one used to in scientology
as thing and people being ”Evil” or ”good” or ”black” and ”white” , or if you are ”with him” you ar e”against me”
My impression of her is she might have dissolved the ”cult” mind we built within scn (she did talk about it when working for OSA and searching for the ”evil” on internet )
I suppose she is now going for a ”zen” way – wich is equanimity!
Even on picket lines she doesn’t show anger, hostility, she keep going with ”equanimity” , wich is different thant ”support” or ”agree” !
I felle that some other are really supporting marty as it is evident and they do not associate themselves with ex-scn or Anonymous!
Tory’s way…seems to me of working in association with everybody sharing and toward same mutual goal wich is very clear to me!
If we would have some other new leader that perpetuates the same insanities…they would have her on their road… I am sure.
But she won’t force anybody to think the way she does;
this is something rare for a long time scientologist – wich often, is not capable of granting another way of doings the thins or thinking OK . We can see it with Marty…..
If Tory reads this post, I really woulk liko clarify her position..and I would respect it because her contribution is way moooooooooooreeeeeee important thant my perceptions of it
I am gratefull of the guts sha had and the way she opened with few , and if these guys would even have make mistakes..it’s nothing compare to what they did , and are doing for scientologists!
I guess Aaron have another way , some really dislike it..but it is his own way
It does a job as telling the raw reality and exposing the one that commited and are commiting abuses. Commited abuses or omitted exposing these abuses that thy hide. (wich i understant ca make Aaron and me or anyother angry, especially with rpf’ers, childrens, that are stil lcommited under the ”technology of ethics”
this is only my viewpoint
Thank God … Aaron Saxton, the cat with nine lives, is back from the dead. Once again.
For no one but Aaron Saxton can fully understand and explain to the rest of us anything related to Scientology, the Church of Scientology, ex-Scientologists, Anonymous, Independent Scientologists, FreeZoners, Non-Zoners, never-been Scientologists, sado-masochists and Australians.
Aaron will be here for another five days, six hours and twenty-one minutes. Then he’ll have his usual fainting fit, promise that this time he really is retiring from public appearances, go flop on some new girl’s couch where he’ll remain for 3-6 months, until he cycles back to whatever point on his personal biorhythmic pendulum swing where he, again, will reliably reappear in the blogosphere.
And Caliwog, in the meantime, since yours is the only board / blog that still tolerates Aaron and because he’s good for 10-20 comments a day compared to your usual 3-5, enjoy your upstats.
Meooooow!
Anonymous Two: You’re a Scientologist no doubt. I haven’t done a public appearance in a long time. Scientology doesn’t exist in this city and it never will.
Nice try on the personal attacks, but you’re wrong – no surprises there. But feel free to bring your comments here, your ignorance is most welcome, it does help to show how people like you can stare at facts in the face and still totally ignore them. Read any books lately by people with brains, or you still just thump you’re opinion on ESMB, the home of the terminally insane?
dear anonymous too just because your life is being completely controlled by scientology and you are trapped and brainwashed don’t be jealous that aaron has the freedom to come and go as he pleases and don’t be jealous that he has a place where he can speak freely and debate/ argue/ convince people with out being rpf’d or hit or emotional suffocated……
Just a lurker, never been a scientologist, though I had a few friends sucked in for a time.
I see Aarons points, though made is a pretty aggressive and frustrated way. I think the thing he misses, is that you can reduce ANY human (not just those scios) into brain chemicals, synapis, muscle memory, etc..
Where i think he falls down, is that his righteous anger and indignation blinds him to the fact that not every former scio (or current) is where he is yet. He also prizes his intellect so highly that he doesn’t fully grasp that some people run more on emotion, or find value even in things not to be “perfect”.
I think to understand (and Tory could correct me if I am wrong) is that to understand what helps someone to get out of this cult, you also have to look at what got them into it in the first place.
From listening to Tory, she is someone who places a great deal of emphasis on having emotional connections, friends, “people being nice”. She got into the cult for those reasons, stayed in wayyyy too long because she was afraid of losing them, and got out when she began to make those kinds of connections outside of the cult (her Andreas and LMT connections)…
Caveat here, I think Marty is slick (and I don’t mean it as a compliment), I dont know what his game is, whether he has swallowed the koolaid himself, or just can’t let go of his ticket to glory, but I do believe he has an agenda. I think why Tory “supports” him, is that she knows that some people in the cult won’t leave if they have no way to continue “up the bridge” and she sees, that at least marty or others in the freezone is a cheaper way to do that. She hopes that once people are out, and being exposed more, that they will make their own decisions on whether or not to keep playing the game. If you look at ESMB, there are people all along the continum of belief. From rabid LRH freezoners, to what like to think of hippy dippy new agers, and then those who looked at the evidence and put down the cans.
I can see, from a psychological view, why some people leaving the church grasp on to Marty. They spent and inordinant amount of their time and money trying to get those “super powers” and to admit its all a pipe dream is too much to take. I think though, even if I don’t like Marty, that these people (except for those too entrenched or damaged) that they will slowly fall off the bridge and go on with their lives.
Marty is making a mistake in thinking that he can control the Independant movement, that he could end up being the “source”… Once a bucket gets a leak, others are sure to follow. He may end up with a rag tag group of followers, but there is no way to redevelop a ‘new’ church, the factions are too factiony and paranoid.
Good evaluation from Lurker. Seriously.
I am always weary of people who befriend everybody – like Tory. She can’t tell her enemies from her friends. If she qualifies her friends as those that do not put her down (ergo, I am not a friend for slapping her figuratively) then she defines friends who will support her no matter what.
I am glad she didn’t have a cocaine habit and then found friends who all agreed she is OK for having the habit. And pity the fool who tried to show her the way to a rehab clinic.
One interesting thing Lurker stated was where I was at compared to other ex-Scientologists. I do not know if there could be called any scale of “moving away” from the lies. I think you either get to it, or you don’t, with little in between.
The few who I have spoken to who have researched the subject extensively all stated that they reached a point where they found that the last of their beliefs that they let go of didn’t have as much to do with moving further away, as it did so much that they actually learned how to investigate properly the statements of Scientology and cults. Through this it was more of a process at the end of again reviewing everything and taking the claims apart piece by piece to see the truth, rather than the topic as a whole.
For instance, I found proven Scientific theory that would assert that there is part workability in the Touch Assist. Sadly though, I also found the proof that continually doing a touch assist without understanding how it really works will often result in the brain remapping the injury; activating pain pathways/gateways that will then shut down other functions in the nervous system. This is not convered in Scientology or known about of course because there was no scientific method used in the creation of the touch assist, like the Student tech, it was stolen from other sources.
And before Scios scream “But LRH said it was attributed to others” then I ask them why does LRH not allow other tech that clearly must work and ban other practice, why does he not precisely give credit to the processes etc from whom exactly as real authors do in their works, and why does he try to shut down groups applying workable technology as squirrels, calling it “Squirrled Scientology” as opposed to what it really is which is “application of stuff I stole”.
You should see what I found out what auditing does when it is used in the way that it is… it is no wonder people feel great and then always crash later on – if they knew what was happening to their brain, they would run a 100 miles per hour. If they knew why they felt like they had an ability and then later lost it, they may scream that they ever let an e-meter near them. And yes, the studies are solid and based on multiple experiments and proven results.
I could start my own cult up with an emeter and literally have thousands handing over money hand over fist and have them believing anything, anything at all.
Remember, Marty’s clan still believe that in OT III you are REALLY making thetans leave you alone, and in OT VII you do it all over again. I mean seriously, their blog comments are mad enough, but when you get down to what they actually do to THEMSELVES for years solo auditing, it is no wonder most of them go off the rails, they are literally rewiring their own brains to be duped so badly.
Can you believe right now as I write this comment, that Martys camp, FZers and C of S staff actually think that I have millions of thetans connected to me that are causing all my grief (which I am actually not experiencing). I mean seriously, they actually think that I must be audited before I drop this body and go off to be implanted again at an implant station on an alien planet. I am dead serious. Recognize who utterly insane these people are and also realize that without real professional help, they are guaranteed to hang out with other ex-Scios.
I mean, imagine having this conversation in a bar with a normal sane person? You would likely be locked up, it is no wonder they fear to go out into the real world. Marty is damn sure he is going to make his fake make believe world so damn real and everyone in it will be in agreement with the insanity of it all.
I hope none of his movement have anymore children born into this tripe.
I wonder how much and how far people “recover” and the method in which they do is a personality quirk. Again, not a scio, never been one, but I am a foster Mom who has dealt with many children over the years. I am always amazed by how abuse affects children, and how some kids who have suffered horrifically, still seem to find ways to have a sunny outlook, and others never fully trust anyone again. Some are self destructive and some instead become predators themselves.
Most tend to fall somewhere in between, but like recovering culties, they are “preprogramed” to be victims for the next predator to come down the road. Its very hard sometimes to teach these kids that they have self determination, and I am often heartened by a good old fashioned hissy fit, and a child asserting their boundaries (even if said boundary is an inconvenience for me)..
As a foster Mom, I have found that while therapy and a safe home helps, so much depends on the childs own world view, and how they view themselves. I think Tory sees the good in everyone, probably sometimes to the detriment of herself, and others see only the bad…
I think Aarons viewpoint can be helpful to some, but probably Torys way of communicating is more “palatable” and easy for some to relate to. Most people don’t want to spend the time , effort in esoteric brain studies. They can easily clamp onto subjects like fraud, disconnection, etc… Brain damage is a hard pill to swallow…
I doubt Aaron really cares, but his “tone” probably puts people off of his message, and its too bad, because its important, its just that between his tone and content, he loses all but those who are deeper thinkers.
Good points Lurker. My tone is off-putting to some, I know this. I have never thought I would ever really get through to anybody in Scientology via blogs, but I know when I protested I certainly did – but my location makes protesting all but impossible.
I like the blog spot here for banter.
Aaron, I think different voices are important, and don’t even necessarily think you should tone down your rhetoric. Your going to piss some off, and frankly thats their problem as much as yours. Its possible that Tory (for example) will wonder why she puts so much value on “nice”, even if its a fake form of nice, over honest frustration that comes off as “mean”… Maybe she will learn to be a more critical thinker when it comes to Greeks bearing gifts and save herself some future pain..
Personally I have always learned more from the occasionally kick in the butt, rather than someone kissing my ass..
I enjoy the banter also here, even if I haven’t participated in it much before, because Cali here enjoys poking those he feels are too stuffed with importance (Marty, etal) and even if they don’t see it so, its good for them. Even if some of their followers don’t agree now, the seeds get planted, and if not, they can’t say they weren’t warned…
btw, there is a thread right now going on at ESMB talking about rates for auditing in the freezone.,.. What a freakin racket! 150 bucks an hour? A professional counselour charges less than that ( we use a child therapist for some of our fosters who has a doctorate who charges 85 an hour) …. Talk about suckers and their money, soon parted….
I find that no scientologist often are understanding all the issues about ex-scientologists and the truth about scientology really better than ex-scn or current scn..
Could it be that they did not have their mind brain-washed or implanted????
They are capable of compassion and empathy even if the suffering and psychological scarves left by a cult is difficult to understand from second hand. I guess it comes from the connection to their human emotins, feelings , wich has not been suppressed and destroyed.
A scn is cut from it.,.it is called ”case” and forbidden. You are letf alone with your hidden sufferinf and despair for long years,
till you do not feel the pain anymore and became this Rondroide capable of hurting and destroying your fellow, mother, spouse, child.
Only LRH scripture exist and remind within one’s mind for years after leaving.
A lot of anonymous understand these issues.
Anonymous Too, you nailed it. My goal is to get a small flock that will post dozens and dozens of comments saying how right and how theta I am. Then I can junk my stupid no-censorship policy and start cutting the comments I don’t like, and I can stop posting what Aaron writes because the things he did that I disagreed with *far* outweigh all the sensible no-nonsense and experience-based stuff he has to say about Scientology.
Just do me a favor, don’t tell anyone my plans. Wouldn’t want the word to get out!
ML,
Caliwog
Lurker, all very good points. (Actually, everyone is making good points in their comments. Well, maybe not Anonymous Too.) 🙂
I write this blog because I believe Scientology is genuinely harmful, and I want to do what I can to help. I hold Tory in very high regard (although I fear she may not feel the same way about me *g*). I think it’s fantastic that after targeting Mark Bunker, she came full circle and came around to help him. I think her heart is in the right place.
And maybe her approach does work. Maybe by being an ally to the Independents, she can be the one to lead them out, to show them that it’s not just DM and the Church that is full of shit, it’s Hubbard.
I also really like Aaron because he says it as he sees it. I don’t expect Scientologists to read this blog, and if they do, I don’t expect them to read it with an open mind. People see what they want to see. I write this site for people on the outside, in the hopes of getting them to better understand what Scientology is, why it is harmful, *how* it is harmful, and to dispel the rumor that Independent Scientology is somehow better, healthier, more humane or less insane than the Church. However, Marty Rathbun, his censorship and his lies really get under my skin, and sometimes the blog drifts too far in that direction (not unlike Marty’s vendetta against David Miscavige, I guess).
Anyway, Aaron tells it like it is, and I think what he says speaks well to non-Scns. And I agree with a lot of his points.
People have accused me of kissing up to Aaron, of using him to get page views, and of talking with his arm up my ass. The truth is that Aaron is good for traffic, but since I’m not selling a service, I have no vested interest in growing my traffic. I post what Aaron writes because I agree with a good deal of what he says, and I admire his honesty and his willingness to talk about the things that he did, even if they cast him in a bad light. I admire that sort of selflessness. And I don’t expect the people I admire to be saints. Just because you do some good things doesn’t mean every aspect of your life is perfect.
Which is not to say Aaron’s approach wouldn’t work with a Scientologist as well as Tory’s. I love watching videos of Aaron talking to Scientologists. Believe it or not, his anger translates. They’re pissed off at protesters, he’s pissed off at Scientology, and they listen to what he says. (They’re applying some of what LRH said about the tone scale, actually.)
I’m rambling and I forgot the original point of this comment. Oh well.
ML,
Caliwog
Outofscn:
>I think Tory is not anymore thinking the way one used to in scientology
as thing and people being ”Evil” or ”good” or ”black” and ”white” , or if you are ”with him” you ar e”against me”
This is a great point and one I struggle with. I object to Scientology’s black-vs-white, us-vs-them mentality, and yet I could be accused of practicing it, saying that Independent Scientology is essentially the same as Church-going Scientology.
If only things could really be figured out and sorted, the way Hubbard said! 🙂
ML,
Caliwog
The point to understand is:
What is made the scientology of????
Scientology is made of LRH scriptures..nothing more nothing less.
The stuff like ”what is greatness” has been written by something else for a pr reason..I remeber it from around 85. (80-85 where really weird years in scn) The whole insane stuff is really coming from LRH ; Mike and Marty knows..they enforced it through 2 decades. It was Mary’s job to be responsible for the planet to follow LRH orders . DM dis not invent cruelty within scn..he has been trained to it by the guru LRH.
So there no reverse or radical scientology..
scientology IS radical insane from the scritpure that consist of the technology of oppressing and abuse the human being to build money and properties assets and dominate the world..that is cientology..period!
Yes..the Church of scientology reflect the essence of scientology as Miscavige continue within the same path than Ron and all of his abuses as well as the corporate Church behavior can be validated of having it’s roots from Rons’ order or policies. So you can find that the sea Org life on the Appolo ship was the same than the Int base..abuse, cruelty, rpf, violence, etc etc etc..the difference is who now dictates it..Ron or DM…
SO yes a scientologist has been trained to think two ways:
ethic – out ethics
good – bad
Upstat – downstat
Scientologist – wog
Scientologist – sp
sane – insane
good-evil
pts-sp
you can not discuss with a true beleiver..he only repeat LRH policies and quotes..Ron was in a perpetual war against hi own abberations and with the whole world..so his scriptures are.
Dis you ever read ”the admissions” ???
You can also look for the trial it has been used and if it has been confirmed of being written By Ron in court trial.
A scientolgist t can not grant another numan to think another way than Ron and his..it is the base of any cult..the Guru is Right and anything else is wrong.
So anything you will try to argue with a scientologist will crash on a wall..he can not argue and discuss..he will accuse you of being a piece of shit, an insane…an sp …
We have dozens of example of this insanity on you tube videos about raids…especially the ones at Flag.
I never argue with a long time scientologist. His mind his conditionned to be closed and consist of LRH quotes..he is made a Rondroide through the rape of his self own-determinism and corrected in qual and ethics dept if only a tiny roots of doubt is growing , to make him back within the rank.
I see the same way of controlling mind with the muslims terrorists or Evangelist christians (georges bush) They are all ”right” and will all save the planet from the evil…
But do not expect Marty or Mike see suddenly they are cult-minded ..The have spend their life within the cult working closely with DM..
I do not know their agenda..but I do not trust it, I , and lots of former have enough of scn terrorism.
You are right Caliwog, in my protests I used anger. It is one of the few emotions that Sea Org members respond to. It is sad, but true. They hear you when you talk in anger, I know, it is sad, but that is what they are used to from their seniors, they listen when their senior is in anger. you can talk nicely to them for decades and it goes through their ears.
They respect fear and anger. It sucks, I know.
Scios on the other hand I am not too sure, they are not so heavily thumped as SO members.
Now that is very interesting Aaron, that So tend to only listen to anger. Having worked with abused children, I have also found that approaches can be very different. Some kids can’t bear if you raise your voice at all to them, and others (usually the types that are going to end up being predators themselves, not a hard and fast rule, but the trend is there) tend to only respond to harsh or stern language, anything else doesnt register (I don’t work with these kids long term, I am simply not equiped mentally, and the other children in the home are not safe with them around). They are so callused, and while the do gooder Mom in me wants to try, you learn really quick that if you try to handle stuff beyond your skill level, you will get chewed up or burnt out really quickly.
Yet another interesting thing to think about….
I got the impression before, that the “freezone” label implyed that outside the church auditing was reasonable, but from seeing that ESMB thread on costs, I think its as much a racket as church auditing.
FZers charge, sure they do. For those that set up their own groups, they can rack in a lot, but also there are FZers who audit fro free, too.
I’ve met a couple. I have even been offered to go up the Bridge for very little.
You would have fun on ESMB, too. There are a lot of quacks on there that will give you a run for your money. Be cautious though, you will be arguing with idiots and their stupidity is contagious. Be prepared to hear the outlandish, the impossible and the most childish excuses offered for questions regarding Scientology. There is even a thread there called “wins outside the church” which details wins of the most unimaginable kind that are so unspecific I am sure Notradamis was a Scientologist also.
I should also add, to the FZers who doubt the full wins as promised by LRH, they often say “well I can use my mind better” but all their statements are to the exact opposite. They simply perceive they can use their minds better, but they can’t.
Perception is the greatest manipulated factor in Scientology.
I have lurked the ESMB for some time now. I find the subject of Scientology (as a cult) fascinating and had my own run ins with the cult back in the 80s a few times (friend was in, tried to get me in). I havent really wanted to join there, simply because I don’t feel I can speak to what its like to be in, and with their general level of paranoia, I am sure all the questions I would like to ask would end up getting me labeled OSA or something..
Actually the paranoia they tend to exhibit fascinates me, because while I understand just how much this cult has cost people, who really cares if someone on the boards is OSA or not? If you don’t trust them, you just never let them into you PMs or into real life situations.. They are posting on a public message board for cripes sake, not inviting everyone into their home.
I find most of the freezoners that post on the ESMB almost impossible to understand, even though I am now catching on to the language, their inability to follow a linear thought is distracting, and talking of specifics or concrete facts tend to go off into the ether of beingness, or some other such scio (excuse me) BS. To be fair, I have several new age hippy types in my family who speak the same way, and I find it annoying vague from them also, so I am sure its just my mind going (la la la)..
I genuinely like some of the people who post(as much as you “like” anyone you don’t really know, and must admit I have a real soft spot for Tory ( I feel for her, I have a slight case of ADD myself, and watching her makes me feel lucky not being worse.)
I like to check out Clambake, and used to enjoy WWP(but I have enough teenagers living in my house, and find it a bit of a busmans holiday)…
@ cali “And maybe her approach does work. Maybe by being an ally to the Independents, she can be the one to lead them out, to show them that it’s not just DM and the Church that is full of shit, it’s Hubbard.” thats how i feel maybe im too optomistic about her and her intentions but its how i feel…..
Anyway,
Tory Christman is an example of respect of human beings!
She is one of the ones that exposed her own behavior and expressed true regrets about that! (when she has been OSA)
She is helping the one who needs for help or discussing to help them leave with confidence!
She is courageous!
She is a little Lady
with balls…
I would like her become the next pope of Scientology
I will follow her
http://vodpod.com/watch/4957806-i-will-follow-him-sister-act
She would be nice and let us measturbate without any enturbulation ;D
(it’s a joke ;D)
Sure, nothing like a drug addict who then decides to help others stop, only to drag them to the next drug dealers house (Marty) for further doses. Really helpful. Nah, we do not need mental health professionals – they do not know what they are doing!
cultists like drug addicts… interesting..
You could look at it like Tory is trying to catch people where they are at and hopefully get them to at least agree to ‘rehab’..
There is another line of thought with addicts, is that they often won’t go to AA or rehab because of the thought that they can ‘never’ get high again. Often people coming into rehab are wasted out of their minds, having gone on one last bender. Maybe Martys group is looked on like a methadone program (which isn’t very effective usually btw) for those hard core culties who can’t bear not getting their “fix”….
I think you sell people a bit short though, Aaron, while I don’t post much, I have been reading the various boards for over a year now, and have gone back in most boards histories. The numbers of people who get out, chat on Martys board, and then after decompressing, seem to come to the opinion that its no longer for them, is pretty large.
You will never wipe out Dianetics entirely, but if you destroy the organization, it becomes yet another new age hippy dippy trip, rather than the cannibalistic culture it is now…
Guys and gals — Aaron is right in his point about Tory. Her “catch flies with honey” approach may work. But if she’s also giving them the message that Marty is OK, she’s not helping.
@LURKER>You could look at it like Tory is trying to catch people where they are at and hopefully get them to at least agree to ‘rehab’..
A good point, but the most important thing is that INDEPENDENT SCIENTOLOGY IS NOT REHAB.
Marty and his ilk would like you to THINK that it is. They’d like you to think that the true evil in Scientology comes from David Miscavige. But that’s not true.
The evil comes from LRH. And if you try to point that out on Marty’s blog – especially if you do it factually, quoting LRH policy – he will censor the comment.
Just like DM, just like LRH, Marty is trying to keep a lid on the truth. He’s afraid of it. He doesn’t realize why; he’s a Rondroid, trained to think that any “entheta” (which equates to anything anti-Scientology) is bad. LRH trained them that way because HE knew — he knew that the truth would set people free.
Getting people away from the Church and onto Marty’s blog or into the Free Zone is not like getting a heroin addict to rehab. It’s getting them off heroin and onto cocaine. They will say “Hey, look, I’m no longer using herion,” but the fact is they are still addicted to drugs.
They may think their situation has improved, but it’s just as bad.
ML,
Caliwog
Cali, I agree that it would be best for people to put down the cans. The thing is, I don’t know if you can change :individually: a persons beliefs. What you can do though, is get those people to stop feeding the beast (giving money to the church). I have seen several people, Tory reports this as well, that left the church just thinking it was all DMs fault, but still sold on the “bridge” and after a time out in the real world, reading and checking out the internet, decided they wanted no more to do with it…
I guess where I come down is a revolution for the church itself, and an evolution for those coming out. I personally think Marty is scummy(he really sets off all my warning bells,and the fact that he tries to discourage his readers from checking out other boards or other ideas a huge red flag, along with him censoring most critical comments), and would counsel people against going to him, and even tell them to decompress and look around before going back into any auditing. I see where Aaron is coming from, I just wonder if in his Revolutionist hard line zeal, he actually keeps some people “stuck” in the COS, or stuck in Martys group, because they are so busy defending their choices rather than being free to relax and search around for what they really believe in…
Thanks for a place to have a great conversation about this stuff. I appreciate it.
i like tory.
i just am very uncomfortable with the notion that folks just leaving scn will have the suggestion be made by such a friendly, positive advocate to go into the clutches of a fradulent snake. to the degree that both martay and mike have NOT made their own public admissions of their really hurtful conduct while in the group, they really have no business putting themselves upon a pedestal to “teach” and “preach” Ethics (of any sort) to anyone. period.
when reading about the black ops constructed to ruin tory as well as another fellow, the details which they included in these articles really struck me as being exploitation, really, of two individuals who have stated publically that they are no longer scientologists – and while they gave their permission to have this outed in a public forum, i really see it as being exploitation because again, they (m and m) do not truly acknowledge how hurtful the projects which they oversaw really are and sincerely ask for forgiveness with any modicum of humility. and of course, one trademark scn tactic to note is always to air out a person’s sexual related nitty gritty in vivid detail. details which i think that they could have left out while approaching the topic. not because it is even shameful – sexuality -it is human nature – but because it is very much used by scn to shame a person into some form of submission. (there is no question in my mind that marteee is probably a really kinky fucker himself. LOL) oh shit, i did just say that. and no, i do not even want to know.
This FBI invest into slave labour will be interesting. I oversaw the int personnel office and many of the people pulled from abroad. I will be interested in what they come up with. A real shame there was no source point for them to find people over different divisions, I could have given them a mouton of info. Then again itnwas only valid in the early 90’s and not current.
@Lurker:
>I don’t know if you can change :individually: a persons beliefs.
I think you are right. People leave Scientology because they discover something about it for themselves.
>What you can do though, is get those people to stop feeding the beast (giving money to the church).
Well, you can and you can’t. See, LRH planned for stuff like this. He has a principle called “exchange,” which says that valuable goods must be traded for valuable goods. And that includes Scientology services. If a person receives Scientology counseling without giving something in exchange – money, trade, something – they are doing something wrong. They are out-exchange.
That is one area where the current Church is messing things up. They have to join IAS (the Int’l Assoc. of Scientologists) which takes donations but gives nothing in return. In fact, I believe you have to belong to the IAS before you can take classes. This is a rallying point for Indies, who seem to forget that LRH set up the HASI (Hubbard Assoc. of Scientologist Int’l) in 1954 with the same rules. But I digress.
Remember, Scientologists believe that EVERYTHING LRH said to do is the right thing. Have you read Keeping Scientology Working? If not, you definitely should:
http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=201
>Thanks for a place to have a great conversation about this stuff. I appreciate it.
Thank YOU for listening and being open minded. That’s the whole reason I set this place up.
ML,
Caliwog
Have you read Keeping Scientology Working?
I have, a complete thought and disagreement stopping mechanism. I have attended a few Christian Churches (generally fundamentalist,my Father was a hardline charismatic ) that have a version of this. The difference is that you can just resign from the church(or in my case, never join, and then find a church that more fits your personality)…. You also don’t get fair gamed if you decide its not for you, or your critical of the a particular churches policies (ie Catholics who protest the church protecting pedofiles, My personal protest against my own churches foray into local politics)..
lurker,
regarding christianity, if one were really honest, one might confront the matter of christians going about telling everyone that jesus is the only way…they only way, and if you’re not christian, irregardless of what a noble, good hearted person a person may be, this supposedly loving god hates their guts and will punish them by sending them to an eternal hell for punishment in fire and brimstone and gnashing teeth, and on and on. So, while it is true that perhaps a christian would have the freedom to choose a new church which may personally appeal to them, there is also a tremendous amount of guilt and a certain sort of “eternal spiritual threat” for not towing the line of a particular sect. Christian fundamentalists are pretty hard core, and there are many instances where people get do get shunned in one form or another. of course, in this modern age, people do not endure fair game as is practiced so maliciously by the Co$…….
but anytime a group of people place more value on Dogma versus humanity at large, there are problems. As far as the Catholic church, to have a little perspective, it was not in any way shape or form an easy road for the first brave individuals who became whistle blowers – airing out the “dirty laundry” which was, sadly, an accepted part of the institution which simply transferred pedophile priests from one parish town to another city and turned a big blind eye to the truly immoral conduct by those who were placed in a position of trust and were to act as steadfast “good” role models for the communities in which they served. Just for the sake of arguement, i might suggest that the same pressure one might feel when contending with leaving scn -that being the loss of their “bridge” or place in eternity, could be in some way compared to the fear that one might have from leaving a Christian church, and being condemned to hell ….which can be an equally scary predicament to contend with on a spiritual level.
Fortunately, one might be able to apply reason to situations involving any type of dogma, and self-appointed spokespersons for God and remember that in the eyes of God, all of his creations are equal, and loved, and nobody has more of a special, “direct phone line” to god and his wishes anymore than anyone else.
as far as “thought stopping”, i might suggest that there , at times, may be an element of this within some Christian sects, and to translate this into regular language, it would be the collision between telling an individual to rely strictly on faith with little input or encouragement of intellectual exploration and …gasp! the heretical doubt-filled questions of whether the historical Jesus even exsisted at all…remember that the gospels were not written down for over 300 years afterwords, and there is multiple revisions and diffferent versions of what allegedly occured. Try to say the word, “Satan!” to a fundamentalist christian, and you will get the same response as a scientologist hearing the word “Xenu”. Question whether Mary was actually a virgin, or just impregnated by a Roman soldier, or even her husband, and you will be labeled a blashphemous heretic.
If a person can go beyond all the dogmatic crap and get to the good roots within religion, that being a striving to love one another and be compassionate and ethical and moral, then you have a good thing, and most christians i know are this way, very much so. I just have to laugh, though, when some christians do the “church chat” lady face pucker, smugly deluding themselves that their own convoluted beliefs are so superior….. and i am sure you are not one of those people, but i am sure you have come across that kind at one time or another.
>Try to say the word, “Satan!” to a fundamentalist christian, and you will get the same response as a scientologist hearing the word “Xenu”.
What, you mean “We’ve never heard of that guy! That’s a lie! It’s not real tech!”? 🙂
ML,
Cliwog
LOL Caliwog… Actually Hardline Christians see Satan EVERYWHERE!
Actually Mag, your right and yet you don’t really speak to the whole picture on Christianity. there are as many different flavors of it as a Baskin robbins ice cream store. There are hardliners who believe the bible in the infallible word of God, and by Golly if you deviate one iota your going to hell (thats a part I grew up in, and frankly walked away from)…. Then there are some that frankly anything goes (and usually does)… and tons of places in between.
People in the Christian faith change churches all the time, without any “loss” of eternity(I am sure there are sects that try to pull the “we are the only ones truly in good with old JC”, but they are mostly laughed at). Are there complete kooks in the christian faith? Of course there are. Are some of the precepts of it odd to some (virgin birth, etc) Sure… The main difference is that you can, for free, find out everything there is to know about the faith by picking up the Bible and reading it. Also, if your shopping for a denomination that fits your views of Grace and Biblical doctrine, thats not hard to research either.
Scientology doesn’t let you in on the Xenu part of the story till you have paid a 100 k or so…. Thats just wrong…
LOL Caliwog!
but if they acknowledge evil Xenu, they believe that it will give him more sekrit powerz to wreak havoc and make problemos…..just like Satan.
isn’t it nice to have a fictitious entity to blame for the free will choices that human beings make? Oh, how so many love to have a scape goat for their own human failings.
too bad the “good/honest” christians do not take down the televangelists who scam good folks, and who have reinterpreted Jesus to be their own Daddy Warbucks with a corporate style of “prosperity preaching” where materialism has to be an indicator of an individual who is loved by god more than the others…..i’m thinking of TBN to be specific. It makes me think that if Jesus showed up at their studio at noon tomorrow, looking like a crazy homeless dude, they would kick him out! haha
it is true that in this modern age, anybody can pick up a free bible somewhere, or even talk to a reverend, who would be happy to discuss specific matters of faith for free. And many of them are truly sincere and kind.
Again, though as far as historical perspective, within many churches, there was a definite aspect of combining political and economic power with the mother church, and you better damn well tithe as proscribed.
that’s not how it is generally speaking, these days, and it is probably good that modern christianity has become much more progressive and tolerant, and that is a good thing.
Aaron… i cannot find where you made the exact comment, but i recall recently reading your criticism of an ex who goes by the name of “Gottabrain”. I do not know her personally, nor do i frequent ESMB or know that crowd. If I do have this correct, however, she courageously came out – mask off- to protest along side you in Australia and was a really compelling, honest voice. As I said earlier, I do not know her at all, but i think that your bashing her the way you did is undeserved. Who cares if she reads Tarot cards? She can have whatever hobbies she wants. It is just sad to see you resorting to really hitting below the belt with some people and not perhaps seeing that there are ways to agree to disagree while moving ahead with priorities of greater importance. Many like your honesty, to be sure, but i lose a little respect for you when you are hurtful when it is not necessary. To that end, I might suggest that while you, yourself have left $cientology and your role as a Messenger, you still may have a little work to do to learn to compassionately tame and transform that mean streak in your character that comes out to bite hard more often than you may even like.
Gottabrain was working for Marty’s camp form the word get-go. I did not appreciate it. I could not comprehend how a person who claimed to have it all figured out with Scientology, could fall for such a con man like Marty. She was one of the ones in Australia (and there are otherS) who screamed at me and others not to attack Scientology beliefs.
As time has gone by some of those people are now attacking the beliefs. you see, they never really reviewed them in full back then and are only now beginning to see how dangerous they are, but again based on flawed logic of observation rather than scientific fact.
Observation is flawed.
However, the last commenters observation on me having a whack at Gottabrain is 100% correct.
Gottabrain is also one person who claims to have perfect memory – and thus a clear in Scientology.
Yet when I asked her to remember a few facts about myself that we had experienced, she failed to recall. Now, what is a grown adult, walking around stating such outlandish lies, then backing Marty, have any business in a protest line against Scientology? Frankly, many people “against Scn” only associated with me to get me to switch my attack from Scn to the Corporate structure – which I refused to do.
If she had a clue about the dangers of Scientology, she would fold on Marty and other FZers she supports. Instead, she is more interested in a peaceful transition to a friendly form of scn that doesn’t rip her away form her family.
Doesn’t exist.
I ask again, what business does she have standing in a protest line against Scientology?
Buckley’s & Nunn.
Maxx and Aaron your both right…. we under stand WHY you are sometimes harsh but your not gonna get to explain yourself all the time so from first glance you come off as a pompous arse …..maxx don’t judge a book by its cover ( as ive learned) there is always more to the story…peace
Ohbuddy – there is always more to the story, to be sure.
when a person is, in some regards, in a leadership role based not on “outer-worldly” vestiges of acclaim or manufactured, institutionalized decree, there can be a type of responsibility to maintain a level of integrity as one uses their intellectual capacities to chart a course forward while deeply considering the best interests of others as well.
To be in the eye of the storm while maintaining your equilibrium is not for the faint at heart.
Mag, misbehaving christian pastors get taken down all the time, some by the government (As Jim Baker how much he enjoyed federal prison), to local churches (like my own, when the married pastor was found to be having an affair with a secretary, and asked to step down)… Most of the time, it doesnt make the news, because the corrections come from the inside of the churches (although there was a pastor here locally that just went to jail for misappropriating money, who was also taken down by members of his church, who alerted authorities)….
I think one of the main problems with the COS that I can see, is that from Larry Brennan, there is no one with the power within the church to correct DMs issues,.
Of course there were (and will continue to be , humans being what they are) abuses in any religion. I do think the days of blindly covering up (the catholic pedophile priest issue) are for the most part past, simply because with the internet and the connectivity of people these days, its damn hard to sweep scandal under the carpet (and we are all the better for it.)
I really don’t care if Scientologists wanted to worship Donald Duck, but they have to stop the abuses, and the problem is that the abuses are actually built in to this church, and have been from the beginning, and from the looks of it, there is no way to c0urse correct.
@Lurker:
>Most of the time…the corrections come from the inside of the churches …
I think one of the main problems with the COS that I can see,…there is no one with the power within the church to correct DMs issues,.
A good point. The Old Testament makes it abundantly clear that sex between men is punishable by death. Fortunately, many Christians and Jews have a much more enlightened and tolerant view. (My views on the hypocrisy of selective belief is another story for another blog.) But Scientology doesn’t allow that, as you know. Interpretation is squirreling, and squirreling is bad, bad, bad.
What’s sad is that most Scientologists I know are actually really good people. They are the types who don’t need religion to tell them what the right thing is. They do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. LRH designed Scientology to take advantage of their good intentions, and use them to line his own pockets. That’s one of the reasons I can’t stand the old bastard. If Scientology didn’t exist, you’d have thousands of people out there doing the right things for the right reasons.
ML,
Caliwog
The beauty (and the frustration) of Biblical study is that there are several diametrically opposed scriptures. There are also people who take a snippet of the scripture and “conveniently ” forget context or even what the next stanza says…
One of the differences I see, is that people are actively encouraged in the Judeo Christian realm to study and debate, and no one gets fair gamed for it.(at least not in the last few centuries) There are even areas of study about the possibility of books being “dropped” or selectively edited, due to the prejudices of the day…
I wonder about your last statement though, that without Scientology you would have people doing the right things for the right reasons… I see even in the church I grew up in, people taking what is good and ethical, and twisting it to suit their prejudices, and others who seem to blindly follow.
I was listening to some of the old CAN lectures, and one man in particular stood out to me. His ability to think critically had been so damaged (or maybe he never had that natural cynasim which has saved me a time or two), that even after his family had managed to pull him from a cult, and even after he had agreed it was a cult, they had to monitor him, because he fell for every crackpot scheme and con out there…. I hate to blame the victims, but it does seem like a segment of any given population, just beg to be taken advantage of.
Even now, with all thats coming out and down the pike, you have people who will insist that its all lies. willful blindness, indeed.. I think thats the part that Aaron has been speaking to, and that upsets so many in the critics, because it does come off as blaming the victims, when he is just acknowledging that some victims seem to like that role, and have no intention of being “saved”….
DM has no issues. Why would anyone in the SO want to stop what he is doing?
What he is doing is exactly per Flag Order and policy.
I have yet to see one policy that DM has misapplied. Not one.
If any reader can show me one, I would like to see it.
Aaron,
Re: your statement, “…NOT MATERIAL available to Scientologists, staff members or 99.5% of Sea Org members. Maybe 1 in 60 Messengers I knew had ever seen this guff. And this disgusting stuff was made by LRH for his top people that he needed to turn into monsters…”
Are you referring to Sea Org Directives? Int Base directives? (I don’t know what they’re called) If so, can you give an example of one and how it creates a monster?
Aaron,
Earth calling Aaron – Earth calling Aaron, come in Aaron…
Hey OTDT, I don’t check every comment every day…
Ok, you want examples of directives and orders I have not seen, but remember from 1994-1996, OK, here we go:
I will need to give a little back info for this to make sense:
While in CMO IXU as the Div 1 Sec (HCO Chief) I was asked by CO CMO Int (Marc Yeager at the time) to contact several persons who had left the SO many years before and had started to go public. The orders were to get them into L.A. were they woudl be shown DA packs on things they had done and they would be taken to the authorities if they didn’t desist in the attacks.
In addition to this I was asked to review the files of all HGB staff except OSA to find a plant in the building that had been sent in from a group in San Fransico, they had character information and new it was a female. I located the plant through investigation and had her removed.
After this, I was given access to sensitive files of Celebs at CC Int and was authorized by Liz Ingber (D/CO CMO Int at the time) to have full access.
Following this, I was ordered by RTC to compile a list of materials for hat packs for staff of RTC and another division that I did not know existed. Some 25% of the materials had to be obtained from OSA Int, and the remainder were in a sealed section in Mimeo FB in the basement. Because the mimeo Fb staff were not authorized to view the material, and because neither were the staff at GOLD printing (do not get the idea GOLD staff have super clearances, they are like the Estates Org of the HGB – no offense intended to GOLD Staff), I was trained on how to produce the stencils, ink the machines and run them to produce the copies required.
As part of this, I couldn’t help but read the advices and materials. the materials were OSA Network Orders, CMO Advices, letters from LRH (typed) on different operations that were taking place in the 60’s and 70’s with advice on how to handle the threats, Base Orders, and early directives issued to LRHs Personal Messengers (I guess he had a special group, before my time). There were also written advices to DM in this as well. In total there were around 50-60 pages.
The advices outlined conduct as follows:
1. To set up 2D situations for celebrities and politicians, and that in the event that they would not pass legislation as demanded, or provide sanction for LRH/Scientology (Later these were called Proclomations), then the materials was to be provided to associates to force the person to agree to the other parties demands and then the other parties would bring about what LRH/Scientology wanted.
2. Their is a process that is to be run on persons who will not let go of enemy lines or who come into contact with information that disproves Scientology. The process requires ruining the individual to bring about a sense of complete and total guilt/responsibility for some action that can not be undone. Following this, the person is then made to see that the confusion between his belief in Scn was actually a misunderstanding of how they failed the person in the incident. The result to be brought about is to see that regardless of fact, that anyone who attacks Scn whether it be valid or not, is preventing Scn from assisting others, and thus shoudl be stopped even if the person is a friend. family member or person of good character.
3. Another mentioned process is to force a person into Scientoloy ranks once they have doubts by a series of steps to alienate them from their family and friends. The process involved having people call all their friends asking for the person’s whereabouts and to portray a sense or urgency and one of secrecy. Another step was to have persons partake in services of where the person was employed and then to create situations with their services that would require them to deal with the individual. Following this, complaints would be filed against the person at the company to get them to lose their jobs. Another step was to enter into their residences and move things about gradually over time as to get the person to think they were losing their mind. Another step was to get invests done into all family members and simply have that information reported to neighbours and upon fliers as a low level activity to stretch the stress in the relationship to cause the individual to remove himself and go towards Scientology.
4. Another strong focus was the Rollback series which contained how to handle enemy lines. As I am not familiar with the RB pack some staff are trained on, I am uncertain if there are in fact two seperate RB courses, one for lower level clearances and one for higher level clearances. It should be noted that Ray Minoff wrote several of the HCOBs and these were approved by the Inspector General Network members.
That is enough for now, I can give greater detail as more precise items come to mind. I haven’t thought about it for some time. At the time I was grateful as it allowed me to be a better recruiter as I could create confusion in a candidate and have them alientated from their family – which helped because most of my recruits were teenagers.
Aaron, you mentioned in another thread – that you have Jewish ancestors who lost their lives in hungary. if i might ask, with this being a part of your lineage or personal identity, did you not feel some sort of personal affront on one level or another upon hearing the rhetoric of LRH in the RJ-67 and other areas? i realize that you have a different awareness now than you did then, and noticed that you identified yourself at present as being Jewish. I am wondering how it may have affected you and/or other people in the Sea Org who also had some Jewish ancestry as well.
At the time I was unaware of my Jewish roots. And even when they were revealed later it altered almost nothing – my familiarity with the plight of the Jewish people was very minimal.
I can’t speak for the others.
It was only later after studying the causes behind what happened did I come to comprehend both situations to their full extent.
LRH made comments to slant the Jews – he also made comments to slant Asians, common people, homosexuals, family, women and just about every other person other than himself.
His disgust for people seemed to not be bound by belief or type, but to include everything that was not himself.
Now, discovering after I was in the SO that my father was in the S.O. before I was born with my mother, and that when he took his own life 1 month prior to my joining, that certainly I found offensive – especially when I found out that the S.O. fired the mission to Auckland Org almost exclusively on the advice of one of my fathers “long term friends” (staff at Auckland Org) who declared his children “ripe for the picking” as it were.
Now that I find offensive.
ok. thanks .
Yeesh.
Aaron,
Thanks man for answering my inquiry in such depth and detail. Another question…during these studies of the advices and directives, etc. were you able to distinguish what appeared to be from LRH himself versus what others had authored? Just curious.
Either way, totally uncool for the organization to use blackmail for such petty and stupid situations. If one’s life or existence is on the line, maybe OK, then all gloves are off, but to treat little skirmishes or disagreements like it’s an all out life and death battle, that’s just plain nuts.
Some are blaming Miscavige totally, but I know it’s not just him, though he may be the worst. Others played his sordid game before he came on board and continue to play it with him now.
Thanks for responding.
OTDT, DM wasn’t the worst – I don’t think he can hold a candle to LRH.
DM’s a product of Scientology. He’s just a thug, and not a very smart one. LRH was the true evil genius behind the scam of Scientology. He wasn’t book smart, but he had an instinctual sense of how to manipulate people.
I know a lot of people involved in Scientology don’t see that, but it’s like one of those 3D images where you have to let your eyes go unfocused… and then all of a sudden it’s crystal clear, and you just cant’ lose the image. Once you see Scientology as a scam, you’ll look at just about everything LRH said and ask “How could I not have seen this for what it is?”
ML,
Caliwog
OTDt, you raised two points:
Directives from other than LRH & blaming DM.
This is what I have to say on those two points:
I was aware since being in CMO that for many years, even prior to LRH’s death that Directives acting as policy had been issued by CMO (not DM, just CMO in general) on how to run things. From what I gathered, some directives were issued completely without his knowledge – however, he was never unaware of any Directive once it was in play, and thus he allowed policies to stand as his policy despite other authors.
There is mounting evidence of LRH tech bullitens being issued from as early as Saint Hill (pre-SO) that were not from LRH, he however did issue it under his name as policy/tech because it “worked”. OT V and the L Rundowns were created by other people – and I know this much to be true – and LRH signed his name to it.
Within Int Mgmt, policies and directives get issued based on notations from LRH and it is evaluated or quantified and thus policy is created. The LRH Birthday game which was a major driving force in the SO was not in fact LRHs idea at all. He did however once he saw the results, allow it to be authorized under his name and thus his policy. LRH judged Directives from others based on his perceived results from it rather than from a purest viewpoint.
There are no Policies on email, internet and a slew of other functions or utilities in the Sea Org/Scientology – they however exist based on various LRH references and the use of technology to better the effectiveness of Scientology.
The one disturbing point I guess in all this, is that the most vicious policies I saw were directly from LRH. LRH by his own words was set to be ruthless about his enemies and he was not joking. By and large the policies that relate the event I have described were 60/40 in LRH favor, however the 40% all contained quotes from LRH establishing the validity of that procedure.
Marty will not be able to doubt that he – for many years – willingly engaged in the issue of policies and directives that were a real stretch from LRH intention.
However, as I stated the most vicious towards the destruction of enemies were written by LRH. They are so vicious in nature that it is no wonder they were never issued as HCO PLs – they are just too damning against LRH and his organization. Keep in mind that the OEC Vols do not contain every HCO PL, there are confidential HCO PLs written by Ron that are prohibited to be known to public and Scientologists in general.
On the issue of DM, well, let us take an objective viewpoint:
Scientology boomed after he took the reins and every major threat against the organization has been fully eliminated from governments trying to shut them down, to the IRS, the CIA and the FBI. In any standard, one would have to call that a success of some serious magnitude. He even eliminated the action of SO members having children in the SO (as in born, not aborted and made to live in near Hitler Youth type barracks and compounds) – someone should probably thank him for this. DM is incredibly smart, and his brain for years has been programmed around the activity of manipulation to gain control and keep Scientology afloat – like any subject, once you are immersed in it long enough your brain factually changes to map that function out and make you more adept at it than others.
I doubt DM can turn off the fight or flight mode that is now fully entrenched into his thinking and processes. And of course, DM never runs – he fights tooth and nail.
I dealt with other executives in the Sea Org and I do not think that DM is the worst of them – Starkey is ruthless – although he may have his wings clipped, and Mark Yeager is a beast to be avoided – I factually think Scn in Mark Yeager’s hands could be even more deadly – he is just a machine of process that comes from being the CO CMO Int 24/7 for years – P.S. WDC was always division 4A of CMO Int so the CO CMO Int IS the WDC Chairman typically.
There were plenty of other executives there that are as much to blame for the state of things as anyone else. I can tell you now Mike Rinder as a father and a husband is better off without Kathy Rinder – she was an absolute bitch and ran a close equal second to Nettie Alcock – but no one could beat the Ice Queen of them all – Janet Light (IAS), she was known to turn Medussa into stone – I mean she had a rep that required you to raise the Air Con before she entered the city you were in.
Any man who makes mistakes and gets aggressive that is unchecked will without being able to control it, lose their ability to stop being aggressive. It is inbred into your functions to, without your control, act out what grants you the greatest survival. DM has been running around for years being aggressive and he can not change. To a large extent this will go on unchanged – it is not as simple as turning it off. As an example, we all have a motor control built down in the bottom of our spine – it’s purpose is to auto self-correct balance when you fall – you CAN NOT control it, it is automatic, the brain and body established this because it takes too long for nerve signals to reach the brain and then go back down to prevent injury to the organisim known as man. My point is that when your brain gets hardwired for something, it can be undone – but not generally through the person’s choice – it has to be trained out and that takes a long time.
With Marty, DM, Starkey and the other executives that run the show, they will not be able to integrate into any social environment other than the one their brains are programmed for – which is an environment that must contain the following:
a. Enemies to be destroyed;
b. Deception;
c. Lying in the name of…;
d. Control of Second Dynamic activities and vicious retaliation against anything remotely perverted;
e. The requirement to lead – these people can not be lead, they can only be intimidated into action that is not of their choice;
f. Scientology;
g. The constant opinion that there are forces that are there to destroy their freedom (a PTS Type III Situation) that must always consist of i. Government, ii. Media, iii. Some form of psychotherapy that is bent on “destroying” LRH/Scn & iv. Reactive Minds.
h. The belief that any of these forces through application of some technique can be disposed of.
This is the world SO Executives live in – it is harsh and it is mind altering, and it started way back in SH with cut throat actions instituted by LRH. There is no SO executive that ever made it to the top without fucking over friends, and more importantly, not having any remorse about it.
You could change all the policies in the SO, but this will not change the Mgmt – they are hardwired for destruction and nothing short of their removal lock & stock could made even a slight difference to Scn’s actions. There are replacements all about that are DMs equal, and like I said, Mark Yeager given a free rein of terror would be even worse than DM.
But make no mistake, Scn was under massive attack before LRH died that has not been seen since those days of running around on boats – and LRH killed off almost every enemy – the guy was a genius – but that does not make him sane as you know.
Gottabrain:
Has anyone seen Shiela Huber’s (gottabrain) comments on EMSB on her “torn-around” on Scientology beliefs?
This is one of the ex’s in Australia who literally conspired with other ex’s there to slay me when I went public about not supporting Scientology beliefs in any way, shape or form.
What i find interesting is that the decision of workability is not base don any solid facts form people like this – I saw the same thing with my brother who decided Scientology did not work because he could not observe it could work.
This is a fundamentally flawed approach, it is like saying a car doesn’t work because when you turn the key it doesn’t go – if the gas tank is empty then the car does work, it is your method of application or establishment of the conditions for the test that is flawed.
And it is like this with many ex’s…they can not explain why they thought they were exterior, they can not explain why they thought they had thetans attached to them, the can not explain why they thought many things.
A book alone does not brainwash you.
I wish these cats would be able to explain why Scientology does not work rather than if they “think” it works or if it does “not”.
It’s workability is not subject to opinion and I express no opinion when I say Scientology is hog shit and does not work – I know it as fact based on years of study on it. I have no opinion with others to share on if it works or not.
And I was sickened to death by some of the major ex’s out there who were all for the Churches abuses to stop, and yet ironically thought that the beliefs of Scientology had nothing to do with the abuses. Idiots plan and simple and I was glad to part their company lock and stock.
Aaron,
W O W. Thanks for the tremendous insight from an inside view. Your viewpoint on the hardwiring of the brain is fascinating, even though I’m not sure that I fully agree with it. I’m gonna have to roll that one around in my own head for a while and think about it.
It’s hard for me to believe, even though I actually do, that there are other equally-DMed execs in place. What is your opinion on why these guys like Yager and Starkey, etc. put up with the abuse from DM?
Can you remember a specific example of an LRH authored policy or directive or advice that contained the viciousness you speak of?
Thanks for the comm on this subject.
Caliwog,
I know there’re some 3-D images there but they’re not very clear to me. Foggy, you know?
What I’d like to see is some proof of the viciousness that LRH was supposed to have been guilty of. Like a secret policy or directive or advice, something that was not broadly published. Otherwise, it’s a he said/she said type of thing.
Yes, there is a directive that states you can blackmail an enemy, lie to him, steal his property – that i in the public – is that not enough?
There is a Flag Order which states to destroy enemies by any and all means possible.
What is the value of exposure of these policies and directives – none of them are illegal, even if they order illegal things, because it is a religion. Welcome to the right to have your religion regardless of how fucked up it is. That is said with all earnestness.
You’re asking for proof of things he said, by God, they are everywhere and are undisputed, it is no more than several clicks away. What is it that you are really looking for.
Aaron,
You stated that there were vicious unpublished policies, directives, advices from LRH that general public had never seen and would not know about.
My basic question to you was and is, what are these vicious issues that are generally unseen by the public? I know about the Fair Game policy letter and other statements he’s made openly, but it’s the hidden stuff I’m interested in.
If someone says there’s real vicious stuff by LRH that I haven’t seen and would not know about, I figure I should know about it. I can understand if you don’t have copies, I wouldn’t expect you to.
Until someone gains them by subpoena, then they are not going to be be able to be quoted. I am not aware anyone who has left the SO who has them.
Or perhaps Anon could get them – they are all on INCOMM Computer Banks. Of course, anon would have to get permission to obtain them and I am sure they would not skirt any proper channels.
Aaron,
Sorry I took so long to let you know I got what you said. Been busy.
I wish I could see one of those hidden vicious directives, that’s all.
🙂
Aaron,
Thanks.
It seems, to me, that there is a lot less Infinity in these points of view, than their ought to be.
After all, wasn’t the notion of understanding, and aligning oneself with Infinity, a big draw to the whole experience in Scientology, this lifetime, so far?
I am amused to see that Aaron still has his huge case to talk about after all these years. Someone really ought to put you in session, so you can get to the real bottom of the problem, kiddo. Or, up on a big pedestal, so you can tell the whole world what the problem is, finally, and save us. Oops! Its a slippery thing, Infinity, you could roll between those terminal viewpoints forever, it seems, out here in the Wog World.
LOL!
gern you don’t make any sense to me… enuf said
Tory has the right to support anybody she chooses and so does Marty. It’s amazing to listen to critics that are doing the same thing as the church,–that is denying free speech and dictating who is and isn’t an SP–and that is bullshit!!!
darinjazz2… you said
“It’s amazing to listen to critics that are doing the same thing as the church,–that is denying free speech and dictating who is and isn’t an SP–and that is bullshit!!!”
We are not denying the free speech or dictating who is or is not an SP – we are voicing opinion.
the church locks up, takes away your phone and threatens to disconnect your family, that is denying free speech.
Don’t compare any critic to the Church – your talking out your ass.
I never, ever endorsed Marty. I posted on his blog THE HISTORY OF THE CRITCS…EXPLAINING MANY CAME BEFORE MARTY.
I ask: Did Aaron ever work for the Top Secret OSA int Net Mafia? Answer: No
Did Aaron ever call me first to lear the facts from me vs writing all this bullshit twisted crap about me?
Answer: No!
Was Aaron sent out to “handle” the critics?
No. So he has no real idea, at all, why I’ve said or done what I have.
I had the guts to leave and speak out.. .when he, and Marty & Mike and most were still “in”, running programs against me or suppirting those who did.
To anyone who supports this…You, including Aaron, are doing éxactly what $cientoligy wants! Good day.
Tory Christman