I’ve always believed that David Miscavige became the leader of the Church of Scientology by deceit and trickery, and I know that’s what many Independents also believe. But there are several protesters who say that DM was actually L. Ron Hubbard’s choice to take over the Church.
Aaron Saxton, former high-ranking Sea Org staffer and frequent commenter on this blog, made a reference to this, and I asked if he would write a more detailed article. Aaron was kind enough to oblige, and his article talks not only about LRH’s search for a successor but on how LRH felt about his wife, his use of drugs, and evidence that David Miscavige really is a true believer in Scientology – just as LRH planned. Here’s what Aaron wrote.
In the early 80’s indeed a power struggle occurred within Scientology.
Significant actions were taken by several persons to see the future of Scientology as LRH intended it, would continue.
In writing such an article it is easy to offend as often facts are thrown away so we may not see their true colors and let them speak for themselves – in the face of desired facts. As often with LRH being the subject to most Scientologists and ex-Scientologists, the idea that DM was to be the man to take the reins only seems a crime now, a quarter of a century after the fact.
But David Miscavige was not the only person involved in the takeover. And it should be pointed out to the reader now that LRH knew his life was coming to an end, and in fact did desire Scientology to be under the control of one man.
LRH had for 30 years tried to find a successor. Bill Robertson, David Mayo, Otto Roos and the like had all come and gone. No one fitted the bill for LRH, none of these men were ruthless enough to fill the boots that LRH would leave. A few people remained: Mark Yager, Marc Inger, Liz Ingber and Norman Starkey. The Broekers [Pat and Annie, who were LRH’s personal assistants at the end of his life; Annie Broeker when on to marry and divorce Rathbun loyalist Jim Logan] did not come into the equation to LRH. It was true they were good colleagues, but they were in no way fit enough or had the fortitude that would be required to run a cult.
Of the men left, LRH had made the note that when a person passed their teens, they were effectively the same. Characteristics shined through as a teen. The Ingbers, Yager and Starkey were all class acts and capable of running enterprises. Possibly Marc Yager was the most dominant and powerful left along with Norman Starkey. True executives for what he required.
But they were never quite there.
LRH’s wife [Mary Sue Hubbard, or MSH] was not an option. She had not only gone to jail, but she had utterly failed in the GO [Guardian’s Office, Scientology’s internal secret police force and predecessor to today’s Office of Special Affairs, or OSA] and although MSH was LRH’s wife, his history would show when revealed later that being a family member of LRH guaranteed you nothing.
Excluding his family from the equation, left these people.
However, one other man was showing the stuff LRH needed – it was David Miscavige. He was young and he was power hungry.
More so, he was developing and his abilities as a young man were gaining strength to strength. LRH had already made his decision who was to run the Church, but before he would hand the reins over he had to know if DM actually had the steel to see through some of the most ruthless actions that were required to running a cult – destruction of critics, whether they be friend or foe.
While it is the stuff of Mills and Boons to think LRH adored his wife, in reality we see the family torn at the edges – his three marriages, suicides (if not murder) of their own children, and last but not least, MSHs utter failure which nearly destroyed Scientology all together. This was unforgivable to a man who was now in he mindset of considering the future of mankind – children and wives were a far, far off second.
So was established the All-Clear Unit. DM was to see to its success. Ron’s communication lines had again and again been scrambled, and his messengers [staffers, usually young women, assigned to communicate LRH’s intentions to subordinates] were failing. DM was to establish a true messenger unit with services to Ron and control his communication lines.
It was easy enough for MSH to go see Ron – after all, she too had influence and power and it was a simple task to get any number of Sea Org members to take her to see Ron. Failing this, all she would have to do is go see the police. She did neither.
Ron’s final years were painful ones. Suffering from medical illness that plagues all old men, he was on drugs to ease the pain and make his life more tolerable, and travel to a degree was out of the question.
But he did not want to see his children or MSH – as far as he was concerned they were part of the problem. LRH never did fathom how MSH managed to get things into such a state that the government of the United States almost managed to shut them down.
What separated DM from the rest was that he would do anything and make anyone do anything. More importantly, he seemed to know who to trust and was capable of allowing several people to follow individual orders that had a net result – yet no one individual really knew enough to cause destruction. LRH recognized this brilliance – he himself had this quality, and he could see DM would never give one person enough power to undermine him. LRH saw in DM what he wanted in his own sons but never received.
DM did not have to see MSH to get the Church away from her – her signatures, fingerprints and life were everywhere – all that he really had to do was lock her up and have papers forged. But Ron did not want that. He wanted Sue to give up the Church. There was the risk of the children going AWOL as had so many already that they may take the Church and abuse it. MSH could not run a Church, and she knew it, too. Also MSH could tangle LRH up in court and she did not desire that either. The best way was through her willing submission.
LRH requested MSH to sign over the final rights that would allow the crack team of DM, Norman Starkey and a key few others to change the Church forever.
But Ron had one final thing to do – instill into DM that it was all real, and give to him a final shocking incident that would send DM on a path that would ensure he would never waiver.
All Ron needed to do was to stop the medication and he would die. He knew this. Before dying he simply fed to DM what he needed to hear – that he was going to drop the body and go to another planet and spread Scientology there.
And drop the body he did.
From that moment on, Scientology rested in DMs hands. While management went through reshuffling to avoid the pitfalls of its previous failures, something else happened – no one else shared the same ruthlessness. Before long, DM was starting to run WDC [Watchdog Committee, which oversees other Church organizations] and CMO Int [Commodore’s Messenger Organization International, an organization that ensures other Church orgs follow Management orders] on a bypass [going around the managers in charge and running the organizations himself].
Soon DM would start to use the same techniques Ron did to gain compliance – consequences that were too shocking to be endured. Just as LRH established the Messengers, DM would establish the RTC Reps to give him a direct reporting line. LRH in his heyday would have unlimited PIs [Private Investigators] on you, set you up for a fall with the police, or you would simply disappear. Or, if you were Sea Org, you were thrown into the RPF [Rehabilitation Project Force; Scientology’s in-house punitive labor camp], separated from your family until you were ruined. When the Sea Org was at sea, one of LRHs favorites was to thrown you in the Bilge Pumps with no light, food or water for days.
And so DM started using the same techniques.
His executives, while not enjoying the punishment, did understand it. What was a punch compared to the consequence of Scientology failing? And if they learned a lesson from it, then was it all that bad?
The sad truth is that DM uses only what LRH lets him use – his technology.
DM has not released OT IX or X [the next Operating Thetan levels] because LRH made specifics on when they could be released – even though releasing the new levels would bring countless millions of dollars to the Church, DM stays true. Though DM could take all the money in Scientology and waste it all, he has not. Still the bank accounts brim with money and new orgs get built on top of forced donations.
LRH made a habit, too, of changing the technology when clear scientific evidence would appear that compromised the integrity of his work – he would change it. Where a new technology arose, LRH would employ it, and DM following in LRHs steps, kept up the same operating procedure. Even DMs executives tolerated and actively supported it. While we now hear the executives that left tried to defy DM, the truth is that they did not, and only chose to speak of the technical changes to Scientology as if DM had done it all himself. Nothing further could be from the truth.
DM is no angel. He is, however, the image of LRH.
One shudders to think what LRH would if he were alive and running the Church now. With the IRS off his back, with billions in the bank, what would LRH do other than impose his will over every human being he could?
A benevolent Church was never any Church LRH owned or ran – ever. Violence has been part and parcel with him since the onset and particularly in the early days of the SO – when DM was still running around as a little boy.
The only truly hard thing to grasp for the faithful few of Scientology is that Scientology today is how LRH would run it. LRH himself annually created new courses, wrote new lectures and revised his technology continuously. While I have never seen the Archives, I know factually that there was material LRH wrote that was not released to the public which it slowly is now. I know this because I have seen the hand written recovered LRH documents from the Los Angeles warehouses. Even a family member of mine has seen DMs own billion year contract he signed when just a boy.
If we did not have the internet today, it is doubtful the Church would be in such trouble as it is today. Without people being able to connect around the world it was very hard for critics to get a word in without swapping lawyers.
LRH envisioned such a mechanism like the internet to completely take over the world; as it turns out, it is working against his technology because his technology does not allow for one vital component most human beings have: The ability to think for themselves.
Do not be surprised if we soon see the re-incarnation of Ron here on Earth – the prophet returns, and I Imagine he may perhaps come as the son of a famous Scientologist, Sea Org member or Scientology celebrity. One thing is certain, he will not return as a woman, a red head ever again, or as Marty Rathbun’s friend.
If LRH was here today he would probably smack both Marty Rathbun and David Miscavige. They have both been very bad and while LRH likes people to be bad, it is only OK if they succeed in pulling off orders.
And none of them have done that.
As I used to say when I was in the Sea Org – “That’s a flunk.”
Aaron Saxton, June 2010
Well this helps to explain where LRH is coming from.
Interesting revisionist history Aaron. Sadly it ventures a bit far off the path of the facts, generally know events and testimony of people close to Hubbard.
I would recommend that you find out a little more about scientology, the philosophy and technology, rather than commenting based on your cult experience. What you took part in bears little resemblance to scientology, except for the name attached to the organization.
You said “Ron’s final years were painful ones. Suffering from medical illness that plagues all old men, he was on drugs to ease the pain and make his life more tolerable, and travel to a degree was out of the question.” Yet Hubbard spent his last years in a motor home! And was driven around the state for his enjoyment by the previously mentioned Anne Broeker. Hubbard died realitively young, in his 70’s of a specific ailment, that has sudden consequences, a stroke, not from lingering and wide spread decrepitation. The only drug verified was a mild one that could be used for allergies or stroke symptoms.
Your analysis of scientology as an organization is opinion. And based on your experiences which you have admitted were colored by your own disreputable actions.
You said “LRH made a habit, too, of changing the technology when clear scientific evidence would appear that compromised the integrity of his work “. I would ask you what your training and case level was/is to pontificate thusly…my understanding is that you only received sec checks and not any substantial auditing and are unclassed as an auditor. Additionally what science are you asserting has been done on the subject of scientology, that would call into question Hubbards actions?
Just two things that stick out at me….
I feel bad for you Aaron, to have had the experience you had in scientology, but your truth does not necessarily or automaticly become universally true.
alex (who you disconnected from on facebook because I dont hate scientology)
My truth does not have anything to do with it. Nor am I searching for answers. Scientology was put under Scientific, empirical observation and evaluation before I passed judgment on it. really, judgment is a poor word to use – facts are facts and while they may be interpreted differently, they stand alone with their set of values compared to other sets of values for proper evaluation – scientific experimentation.
Factually, the technology did change. I have myself seen the earlier HCOBs and books where statements of facts are made as to scientific matters that scientists have proven as false. LRHs choice in the matter was to delete his incorrect assumptions and hogwash.
While in the Sea Org I oversaw the operations department’s statistics on programs implemented at FCB level. From there I witnessed numerous instances of alteration to the tech – which inevitebly led back to other alterations going back many, many years. FB Mime holds all revisions that have ever been made including even back to Saint Hill. Not a lot fo staff really go in there, but I did. And I saw first hand the innumerable alterations that have been on-going since the 50’s.
Nothing you have stated regarding Ron’s medical condition or anything else contradicts anything I have stated.
I will also ask you to keep in mind that there are many matters LRH attended to in the form of other written words such as OODs, FO,s CBOs, GO Orders, Espionage Series etc. etc. that will never be known by Scientology public, staff or the vast majority of the Sea Org staff – they are off limits to most and carry confidentiality that bars them being seen by persons under certain security levels.
It should be noted that an Int Clearance does not grant you the right to see these orders or written documents. even Marty could tell you that.
The documents I saw in the SO – especially the materials for RTC Inspection Officers and other RTC staff were compiled by myself at the FB, under special clearance. I had to operate the mimeo machines and destroy the stencils – no one else in the building was allowed to see what was produced. And I can assure you the guff LRH fed his most senior officers was trash.
It should also be noted that in 1995 a 99 page transcript of talks between DM, and other officers of the Church – names I would not come to hear again for another 10 years – was seen by me during the prelude to the INCOMM security breach. Within that document, real estate, banking for the next 20 years almost, and statements regarding legal matters pertaining to the estate of LRH and Norman Starkey’s involvement was seen by me. I know a few things others do not know, but there is no need to reveal them as working out LRHs fate and what happened is quite irrelevant.
The only thing that is relevant is the charade being fed by those willing to somehow impose onto others a truth that the current mgmt is something new – when it has been the same since I was there 89-96, and was the same after, and the same before.
I too have had conversations with some of the big wigs involved in the SO early days and know all too well the lies told right from Mission into Time and before. I do not quote them, nor discuss who I am talking about. I spoke to them years ago to gain information to help me piece together the great puzzle that is Scientology.
It takes a brave man to know for certain he was part of a major con, and an even braver one to turn his back on everything he believed not out of spite, but out of 8 years of investigation.
While some investigate to substantiate their own beliefs, I investigated to find out the truth – and I can assure you, if that investigation turned out that LRH was gifted and genuine, I would have been proud and happy to accept that. However it did not.
Moreover, I did my investigation with the absence of people who “believed” and pro or anti-Scn. A scientist is not concerned with prejudice.
And yes, I do not want people on my facebook who believe or follow Scientology or support others who do. I know precisely the result of a world engulfed in Scientology thinking – and we do not need the dark ages.
Despite all the “intelligence” I see claimed by many ex-Scio’s I still to this day have yet met one who understands the Theory of Evolution, the Laws of Physics or could even solve a reasonably troublesome Algebra Equation. Although Einsteins theory of Relativity is still only truly understood by a handfull of people on this planet, I still can not even met one single “ex” who is still involved in Scientology explain it even well enough to pass a little. It does not inspire confidence.
this sort of ignorance does not lead man to spiritual enlightenment – it leads him down the dark road of the Dark Ages. And a world with Scientology is a world that has lost all of mans real knowledge which was mastered by true genuises with brains more powerful that sometimes come along one in every 500 million. Brains like LRH come along in the ghettos, the alleys of ignorance and in the war thriving jungles of Africa. Or the looney minds of ex Scios who can’t research because they were taught not to.
LRH’s only gift to the world was to show how a con man can really con people well. It is not a talent. It is a gift that should be forgotten. Show a dozen ex-Scios that have gone and done proper academic studies and passed in Science, Social Studies and other noble subjects that require true intelligence to graduate, and I will show you a handfull of people who would never consider Scientology ever again.
To them I say go get educated. And until they do, they will want the 5 minute answer, rather than the years it takes to get the real answers. Gurus and cults always give you the quick and easy – and people like Marty will spend 20 years to defend it, rather than go back to school and discover what he does not know. But then again, most ex’s “think” they know what they do not know… which makes them particularly hard to educate and this is why no Scientologist will ever become Nobel Prize Laurette. They are idiots. And idiots make for a poor future for mankind.
And I would also like to add, thank you for feeling for what I went through. But it is all over now. I do not think back to those days, nor deny my mind if it wanders into those thoughts. I have dealt with what happened 100%, and I am comfortable with where my life is going. And I would like to add that I will ensure my friends and friends of friends never go down the dark road of Scientology. I know it can be bliss – ignorance always is. But living with reality will lead to a better world not just for me, but everyone else. Being on MDMA can be fun, but it is an artificial state that when ends, leaves one dealing with the reality as the brain is supposed to – and designed to deal with. Scientology like MDMA is self deluding and inevitably, destructive. Unless of course, everyone around you is on it, then you hardly notice. Real men, real women, real people that make a difference are set in reality. Science as an example never set out to disprove or prove God or spirituality – but it is the only application that will ever prove it’s existence – and as I said before prejudice has nothing to do with science. If they find God, they will know it for a certainty, not a myth created in the gallows of stupidity and brainwash.
Thank you for a clear, honest, and educated view on exactly what the majority of the situation was, is, and how it should be dealt with.. Few have travelled the road you have and thus, will spiel disagreement at great lengths. But, who cares? In my readings, nature allows both stolen and newly discovered “truths” to survive every “ism” by passing them into the culture, while the lies become more apparent and then abandoned. Fortunately, ancient and new wisdom are abundant and us close as the internet or nearest park and one can, with some care, begin to discover their own spirituality without cost of anything other than their own time, attention, and diligence.
Thank you for your sincere time and attention and sharing your background with others in such a kind manner. My own ineptness prevents me from having the patience to tolerate the ineptness of other’s ineptness, so I do not post too many opinions.
What does an ex-scientologist know, and not know? Do they know that they do not know something? What about the things that they do not know, that they are also unaware of that which they do not know that they could possibly come to know? Scientology was “Knowing how to know” but that shuts out the ability of a person to look outside that body of knowledge for answers to the problems presented within that body of knowledge, especially when you are told “you will get the answers – just stick with it”.
I invite ALL to read the following article, I believe the correlation with Scientologists will be glaringly obvious, or if by chance you are a Independent Scientologist, perhaps not.
I generally like you Aaron, you are passionate and upfront with what you think.
But to say that science has passed judgement on Scientology is a fallacy.
And yes of course the tech changed over the years! The application changed, but not the principals upon which it was based. What was written in DMSMH and other early writings is still the basis of the technology in use at the end of Hubbards time.
But then Hubbard has been dead 24 years now and much has been perverted in that time. What the church is doing now is not the scientology of hubbards time.
How old were you 24 years ago? Were you in the sea org then? Or in ’82 when scientology changed, and the downfall began?
Yes the CULTure of the CoS is a trap. It is not scientology.
I suggest you are unfamiliar with scientology as a philosophy and a technology. You only know it as a cult from your experience.
By the way, my question to you, (unanswered), what auditor training did you receive? What case level did you achieve? I think this goes to the heart of why you feel as you do about the subject, you never experienced it, just a perversion of it.
Mirna, I reject your assertion that scientologists are unable to look outside the subject. Some people certainly are fanatical and lack curiosity and that would confirm your assertion, and I will grant that there is most likely such people in the church of scientology.
But as a complimentary notion to the article you cited, consider the notion of confirmation bias in your thinking.
Certainly there are unknown unknowns! Why else would people be so curious about their situation as life forms so as to sacrifice so much of thier lives in search of answers!
Sadly, yes some fell into traps in the effort. And that trap was thinking they knew the answers, rather than how to pose questions.
Scientology is not an end, but a means.
Alex, one might ask you the same thing. How old were you 24 years ago? How do you know what has been altered?
Aaron answered your questions in his article. He says he had access to the archives and saw the documents with his own eyes.
Aaron may or may not be right, but the fact is that the few people who were there either aren’t talking or aren’t being allowed to talk. Aaron’s account is plausible and fits many of the known facts.
Aaron also raises a very good point that gives a great deal of credibility to his viewpoint: If DM is out to pervert Scientology and make money, why hasn’t he released the next OT level? He could make a TON of money. And the answer that makes the most sense is the simple one: Because DM is a true believer and is following LRH’s instructions. Certainly DM’s behavior indicates he is following in LRH’s footsteps. Though the Independents would like us to believe otherwise, the EVIDENCE shows that LRH’s reign of terror wasn’t any less terrible than DM’s.
Science has passed judgment on Scientology. The fact you do not know this is precisely my point. Departments of science have done studies that directly relate to the very fabric of Scientology. You have not gone to look so you would not know. Ergo – your fallacy is the “belief” that they have not – when in FACT they have. Now, they have not done a paper on “Scientology” they have addressed correctly components that directly relate to areas that are the fabric of Scientology. I will say it over and over again – go look, will you? and knock off the ignorance.
Until you have studied the relevant areas, you just would not know, and by the sounds of it, you will not bother to either.
My case level is not relevant, nor the training level. That is a nice little trap there, Alex.
If I have factually found evidence that disproves the vast majority of the information found known as Scientology, and I ahve uncovered outright lies and fraud, is there a point to being a Class XII?
If that was true Alex, then a Class XII, OT VIII will always be able to say to you “but, you don’t know”. Well, that argument is an argument that only works on people that can not think. start thinking, and looking.
Go study the human brain in detail, and I think you will find some very interesting answers to questions you do not have – but should have. If you want me to consoledtae 4000 pages of information into a paragraph, I will not.
This fits perfectly with the story of how Ron’s immediate family was destroyed or got out of the way in the last five years of his life.’
It also explains why DM will never ever give up. He has a divine mission. He may even believe this.
Mirna’s point of the article was not even about unknown unknowns etc. It is about the mental mindset of people and why they are unable to go down certain paths of calculated thinking. I hope you did read it all, every last bit of the article, because your response is precisely the reason why you could use the value of the article if you read it in full.
It sounds like you brushed through it or read the first part. the point of the article and the STUDY that ensued is the fruit of the article.
The fact is this article applied to Einstein, to you, to me, to everyone.
I was 30 year old 24 years ago and had been a scientologist for about 10 years.
Certainly there have been changes to the “technology” of scientology in that time and from the begining. Any study of the subject makes that very obvious, and the briefing course actually details it chronologically.
If Aaron wishes to assert that scientific study has passed judgement on scientology, it would seem incumbent upon him to offer proof. I could say that science supports scientology just as easily, but without proof, it is just an unfounded assertion. Although my opinion is that science is not the venue for validating or debunking scientology.
Aarons level of knowledge of the philosophy and technology of scientology, as would be demonstrated by his auditor classification or case level IS relevant. He is not knowledgable in those areas. His expertise is in the cult aspects of the Church of Scientology, which I acknowledge.
He speaks from a rather narrow perspective, as talked about in Mirna’s link. He is unable to think outside his realm of experience.
Aaron asserts much, documents nothing.
“Science has passed judgment on Scientology.”
Prove it Aaron.
Aaron has passed judgement on Scientology. Tru fact.
>If Aaron wishes to assert that scientific study has passed judgement on scientology, it would seem incumbent upon him to offer proof….
>Although my opinion is that science is not the venue for validating or debunking scientology.
Okay, so which is it, Alex? You are using classic Scientology tactics of deflect and attack, just like LRH taught you (and the reason he taught that is that Scientology does not stand up to scrutiny). On the one hand, you are saying that Aaron should provide evidence of scientific proof that Scientology is bunk, and the you turn around and say that YOU do not have to prove that science supports Scientology because it is not the proper venue.
So decide which you want, Alex. If you want Aaron to prove his point, then I say that is dev-t* and not his hat as a protester, because you can easily find plenty of such evidence with a simple Web search. In fact, you can find plenty of examples in Hubbard’s own voice (and allegedly in his own writing) of statements that could be proven false by a high-school student.
The field of science that has done the most to disprove Scientology is the field of psychology, defined by Webster as “the science of mind and behavior”. Of course, we all know what Hubbard taught about The Evil Psychs. The evidence was so strong that LRH made dead-agenting psychology and psychiatry (Webster: a branch of medicine that deals with mental, emotional, or behavioral disorders) a cornerstone of his religion. He pre-conditioned you to automatically reject the one field that could do the most to disprove Scientology. (Aren’t you glad you had LRH do to your thinking for you?)
Unfortunately, because Hubbard didn’t know that much about the sciences, he didn’t know to try dead-agenting the other branches of science that could disprove even his simplest of works, including biology (memories are implanted on cells), nuclear physics (radiation is stored in fat cells and can be released with niacin), pharmacology (smoking prevents cancer), geology (events that occurred at specific volcanoes before those volcanoes even existed), and human development (the fetus can hear and understand English before developing ears, a nervous system or a brain and even, if my Scientology is correct, before the thetan arrives in the body).
True fact: Both Aaron and science have passed judgment on Scientology. So has Caliwog.
*dev-t – Developed Traffic, Scientologese for wasting time or making someone else do your work for you.
Alex, ask and you shall receive
The above is scientific scrutiny of Scientology’s famous wall of fire, OTIII, and it also looks at dianetics. Of particular interest is checking out all references to volcanoes that LRH makes and then comparing that with the factual geologic record, as the author states:
“Thus this geological check makes pertinent test of past-life “memories” of his own that he has placed at centre of his cult, and thus of past life recalls in general.”
LRH had the bad habit of placing his Space Opera and “history/time track” confabs stories as taking place TRILLIONS of years ago, which contradicts the scientifically accepted age of the Universe as 13.7 billion years.
But it goes deeper than that. You know LRH had to turn Scientology into a religion because he was using bits of psychotherapy he had picked up from various other sources, combining with his love of Sci-Fi fantasy, and in essence practicing mental health without a license and without any training or any deep scientific understanding. I’m sure if you have read “outside” of Scientology you well know that outside of the Sci-Fi stuff, LRH ripped off any and every source he found valuable – particularly the “evil” psychological field. I’ve always thought the big ban on past psychological treatment has more to do with people who have experience with “psychs” recognizing much from their past treatment in LRH’s “dianetic auditing” practices – particularly his direct rip off of psychotherapy regression methods.
However I think Aaron is saying he doesn’t have time to write all his years of research into Scientology in a paragraph because just to go into all the false claims LRH made about scientology and its effects alone has filled books and is too much for a blog comment. Let’s just look at the tip of the iceburg, shall we?
Why don’t clears have perfect memories?
Why don’t OTVIII have IQ’s in the 200’s ?(LRH claimed for every few hours of auditing your IQ would rise one point)
Why do I see OTVIII wearing glasses?
Not smoking ENOUGH cigarettes causes cancer?
Humans evolved from clams?
All sickness is caused from PTS and SPs rather than viruses, bacteria and microbes?
If OT’s are such “ubermen” why have there been no great scientologist leaders out there changing the world and raising the bar for humanity?
For that matter, if Scientology is so brilliant and so scientifically correct, why are NONE of the great minds and leaders in science and academic fields Scientologists?
There’s an evil space overlord dumping aliens in volcanos and sending their spirits to implant stations and then on to Teegack to attach to us?
Do we even want to go into LRH’s laughable theories about radiation?
Alex, comparing scientology to real science is just laughable. Scientologists, like most religions, need to stick to the blind faith defense for a very good reason.
I find the comments made in this blog from an objective perspective are all healthy – and hopefully all lead to readers learning more.
Also in relation to Scientific proof, I would again, suggest the full and complete study of the human brain along with studies relating to Evolution of Man, such as Darwin, but also Hawkins.
there is ample information within those texts based on decades of research by thousands of scientists using the experimental formulae – meaning that the conditions of each test precisely matched the conditions of other tests to give a steady theory. Not law.
To give you an example of areas that are relevant to Scientology, let us consider the following:
1. Memory – How does the brain store memories? Can they be altered? Wiped? and if so, how and why? Forget for a moment that there is a thetan and consider the possibility that the brain does it. Is there evidence of this? Yes, there certainly is. And more. Much more.
2. Perceptions – How do we perceive? We as humans see objects in the visible spectrum. For Dogs, and other animals this spectrum is different, meaning they see things we can not see, and vice versa, why is green so bright? These questions will lead you down a path of understanding how the perceptions of biological organisims developed and why they developed that way. How is this relevant to Scientology? It is very relevant – but you will have to study the subject to understand why it is relevant.
3. Why are humans different from other animals? Is it because we have thetans? Do dogs have thetans? Could it be because we have different brains? Ask the quesiton and research and you will discover interesting answers.
4. Despite assertations you can not fool a person with great knowledge, guess what? It does not matter, the brain is hardwired to put pictures, images and timetracks together so your body can function. Because of this, your brain automatically alters what you see to fit in with what your body requires. Yes, that is right, what you see is not what is actually there in front of you everytime. As one example, your brain automatically ensures you have depth perception, and flat images can be shown to you that your brain will see as depth when in fact they are not. And there is nothing you can do to alter this behavour. even after you become aware that what is in front of you is not there at all. It is not an optical illusion – it is the brain doing what it must do to provide your body with perceptions that aid it’s survival. the relevance to Scientology? everything. Read the subject and find out.
4. Chemistry of the brain – Can you alter a persons mindset so that they get pleasure and pain from different things other than what the brain is hardwired to accept? Yes, you can, but why and how is the interesting thing here. It is totally true that we can have people created with brains programmed to ignore truth, ignore pain, ignore literally cars coming at them head on. What is interesting is HOW the brain can be made to do this and WHY it is programable in the first place.
These are just but a few f the interesting areas that the previously mentioned subjects can set you on a road of real discovery – try it, it is utterly amazing when you are presented with the evidence, the facts, the tests etc.
And I will mention it again – being a class VI or Class VIII makes no difference – the fundamentals are all false. Despite what you think I studied, I studied a hell of a lot of HCOBs and PLs and everything else you can imagine. 7 years in the SO… you study a lot of Ron’s stuff.
And just as you are so willing to point out “But you don’t know Class VIII” I can point out to you that you will never be a Class IX,X,XI or XII.
And on the same argument, the materials LRH created for his chosen few I have read many of them – you never have, never will and will never be able to, so by your rationale, I therefore have knowledge you can not comprehend.
I will give you a tip… it’s garbage so don;t bother – go pick u a book on Science or history.
Wether you or I win an argument or not has nothing to do with facts. If we were to argue and you were to win, it does not mean facts have won – just a better argument. That’s politics and debate. And I am interested in neither. Facts stand up to testing, arguments do not, because an argument is just an argument. And it does not belong in the realms of Scientific proof.
It may surprise you that Einstein’s first theory of relativity could not be successfully argued – most of the science world – brilliant minds, rejected it at first. It would be years later – and it would be proven true. The point?
DON’T LET AN ARGUMENT SWAY YOU FROM FACTS. GO FIND THEM. AND GO FIND QUESTIONS YOU HAVE NOT ASKED YET.
I can not “convince” you to study materials previously mentioned. That is sad. It is sad because you should not have to be asked to study or have them pointed out. Get your head out of the Scientology Library and go to a real one.
You know, one where man’s knowledge that actually created REAL civilization is recorded?
Aaron, I have library cards in 3 different library systems, and I suspect I am a bit better educated than you, (in terms of college attendance, not scientology training).
1. Memory, I dont really care where it is stored, the brain is fine by me. But who or what is it that is looking at those memories? Can scientists find that in the brain? Consciousness is not a physical attribute. Certainly memory may well be electro/chemical, I doubt consciousness is.
2. How do we perceive? Better question is what is it that is doing the perceiving. I use eyes, ears, skin etc and the system of a body for some of my perceptions….but others are in no way related to the capabilities of the body. And both types are intricately intertwined, confusing the issue further.
3. I dont have a thetan. Do you? How am I different than an animal? I think because I have a greater awareness of my own consciousness, and the use of opposable thumbs, and other nifty higher order of evolution tools.
4. Sure, so? Thats kinda what some of us got into scientology to solve.
There is no way I will win any arguement with you or anyone else about this. This is just an opportunity for me to express my ideas….using you as counterpoint or contrast.
You seem focused on the material aspects of life, body, brain, chemistry….I am more interested in consciousness and how to free it from those very same things. I have been 3 feet in back of my head, and many other places outside a body and still retained consciousness. Have you?
Ok Alex, I hate to break the news to you – but your talking out of your ass. You know nothing of these questions or answers – and sickingly, you will refuse to educate yourself. As a result of this, you will also misinform others and walk away from education. Your a true Scientology parent through and through – I feel sorry for your kids.
Your answers are clear evidence you do not know what your talking about. I would suggest reading and studying – but you wouldn’t dare do that.
You have not been 3 feet out the back of your head. If you want to know why you felt that sensation or perception, study the brain. You have never been outside of your body and would never pass a test ever on this. If you can, go to Randi Organization and make your claim – there is a million dollars up for grabs cash – I guess you won’t be doing that huh?
I wonder why… let me guess – it “just happens” right? ha ha…
I too, thought I was exterior, several times during session. Now I know precisely WHY I thought I was. 100% certainty. And moreover, I know how to recreate that effect at any time. You, do not, because you think you were actually outside your body.
I suggest you study the brain and find out what a brain does when it thinks the organism is going to die – it has a few tricks to protect the organism from pain in humans.
I will agree to pay you $500,000 if you can go into a session – it’s Ok, I will show patience, say 12-24 hours of auditing? If you can show it, I will pay it.
All I will ask you to do is read a page from a book behind my back, OK Alex?
Now, before answering any questions, why son;t you go study a bit. I will hear back form you in say, 45-60 days?
Perhaps you would care to refute some exact thing I said rather than say I am talking out my ass. (Thats a bit of a generality…)
I decline your offer to prove I have been exterior. I demand you prove I wasnt!
And by the way Randi is a fraud. He will only accept challenges from people who are already famous and who have been verified by academia.
“12. This offer is NOT open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a “media presence,” which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person’s abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified.”
Read the rules on his website. Not just anyone can make a claim and challenge his “million dollars”.
I can not read a book behind your back. But I have been out of body, with vision, and hearing etc. I do not have the ability to control it to that degree. Or to even to it entirely at will. Your hidden standards show the limitations in your thinking.
You are welcome to your opinions, but if you were to ever engage in a real debate, I fear you wouldn’t fare well with your assertions with out evidence or reference.
If (again) you have some specific sources of information that you think will enlighten me, or change my mind, I welcome a reference. “Go study the brain” is not a citation of relevant information.
(Thats how educated people say “docs or gtfo”)
Alex you didn’t answer any of my questions, in fact your response avoided everyone’s direct questions.
However, I will give you credit for at least coming back to communicate. Usually when you start using facts and requesting them from Scientologist, they mysteriously vanish. (Or if they don’t vanish they simply attack and avoid everything that was asked, which is more in line with what you’ve done here.)
Where I come from we would call your last two responses very weak sauce. (Or as the educated people would say, complete and utter nonsense with a strong helping of total avoidance of the questions asked.)
At the very least can you tell me if you do believe that alien spirits, who were implanted with human concepts by being forced to watch something akin to movies, are attached to our bodies/souls and in order to be fully capable (or achieve higher states of being) we must pay scientology to teach us to audit these alien spirits out of us?
Yes Alex, I hope you are pleased. You fool no one with your Scientology-Quasi denials.
It is entertaining to read your words. I love how now it is all about how I have not answered your questions when clearly I have, and your refutes are as childish as they can get.
You lower the standard of this blog. You really do.
What kind of dim wit are you to go to Randi’s web site, find something like this, but fail to go off and read a book on topic I or others have mentioned.
I have tons of evidence – your welcome to the titles of the books – but I doubt you woudl read them. however, if you wish for them I will be happy to provide them. Just email me on firstname.lastname@example.org and I can provide them for you.
I would not dare to paraphrase or attempt to consolidate thousands of pages of real evidence into a few statements for you because you and others reading this blog should (and should have the mentality) to go read the books which are already consolidated forms of much larger works – like research (do you know what that is?).
Oh, and Randi would give you the money – you or any other Scientologist – I can assure you. Besides, I have offered $500,000. I am pretty sure my bet is safe.
your refutes are defensive and no one could ever educate you in another field because your arrogance is very profound.
Most children would not even bother with this sort of retort you provide. You must have learned it somewhere…
See you Alex. But not in the next lifetime. Or on Venus getting a fresh implant.
So we have sunk to condescension and ridicule…”– like research (do you know what that is?).”
I have actually been a research subject in experiments regarding precognizance. And my daughter did a research project at a major university a year ago…yes I know what it is.
I would suggest you “word clear” ad hominem, as that is what your last comment was comprised of.
I will email you for your reading list. We will see what you consider “tons of evidence”.
I just need someone clear to MEST it up! Superpowers man! Who doesn’t want these?! A few hundred thousand dollars later and a huge load of retarded aliens off your back and the world is yours!
Huzzah LRH, pure genius!
How come no one responded to my video post of LRH’s love of Aleister Crowley? C’mon and sci-fi writer and once avowed Satanist creates the science of the mind! Pure magic.
I personally love how LRH “knew” about nuclear radiation and was a nuclear physicist. Also his military record as reported by Scientology is by no means accurate.
Ah wikipedia, if only the Scientologists at large could go there.
The truth shall set you free! No knowing what you know you know and what you don’t know about knowing that there are known things that some people know and don’t know about knowingness and knowingly know that they don’t know, you know?
Your post about Crowley was interesting, I just got engrossed in the exchange among Aaron, Alex, Mirna and Caliwog. Very enlightening. Wonderful side articles in support, although Alex used one that worked against him as much as for him. Still, wonderfully entertaining.
I believe that G.K. Chesterton said something to the effect that, all logical argument, no matter how civil, is essentially a form of violence. We speak of “touching a man’s heart”, but all we know how to do with his head is hit it.
Still, this exchange was positively scholarly, and generally civil. How very unlike Marty’s site, or the Co$. How very refreshing to see people claim the high ground, and not relinquish it with the next breath.
Anyway, back on Crowley. Apparently, Crowley, Jack Parsons, and our beloved El Ron were engaged in a little project that they called, “the Babalon Working.” Yeah, “Babalon”. We all know that Hubbard couldn’t spell, I reckon none of his friends could spell, either.
It’s an interesting story. Here are three links:
There is a lot more about this on the web. Just google “babalon working” or “Hubbard and babalon working”, just remember to misspell “Babylon”, in honor of LRH.
Alex, first of all, thank you for ignoring all comments but Aaron’s. (That’s me “acking your comm,” not expressing genuine gratitude. 🙂 )
Second, I believe Aaron has done as you asked. You said “I demand you prove I wasn’t” [exterior]. Aaron offered you $500,000 if you could go exterior and read a book behind his back. From what I understand of LRH’s technology, even if you haven’t yet mastered control of MEST (as LRH promised), a Thetan should be able to “be three feet back of his head” on command. Aaron appears to be a pretty thin guy, so I think there’s room for him and a book within 3 feet. So, if you have the abilities you say, you should be able to read a book behind his head.
You are refusing to do this, so I would say that Aaron has done as you asked, and proven that you CANNOT go exterior.
Furthermore, Aaron has experienced the phenomenon and says it can be explained.
I think you’ve helped prove his point nicely. And Myrna’s. And mine.
Thank you, as Robert said, for speaking your mind and remaining civil. That *is* genuine gratitude. 🙂
PS, Alex, I picked up on the subtle “I do not have a thetan.” A classic Scientology trick to deny the beliefs, as according to Scientology doctrine, one does not HAVE a thetan, one IS a thetan who HAS a body. But if you spend enough money and advance far enough, you will discover that you DO have a thetan. Actually, you have *lots* of thetans – body thetans. According to LRH, you’re most likely infested with the things. Sorry.
PPS – B^ob and Robert, for more Hubbard Satanic goodness, read A Piece of Blue Sky by John Atack.
Hey there robert,
I ahve yet to go to the links you have provided, but I shall do so later today. I think they will be interesting. It amazes me how many clues LRH alluded to in his lectures about things he got up to – that went right past my mind and eyes. I guess it happened to us all. Ron had some “fun” int he 40’s and so on. We all thought he was tearing up enemies and getting injured; and recovering himself. When in fact it seems he was up to a little fun and games with moon children and Donald Duck.
I will be sure to look into your links today, thanks for providing them.
Wow! I have to read this whole book! Others have mentioned it to me. Thanks for directing me to it.
I was struck by the two opening quotes, in the preface, “What Is Scientology?”
1. “Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious… it is corrupt, sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based upon lies and deceit and has as its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard, his wife and those close to him at the top. It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestioningly and to those who criticize or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people, especially children and impressionable young people, and indoctrinate and brainwash them so that they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living and relationships with others.” – Justice LATEY, ruling in the High Court in London in 1984
2. “As soon as one’s convictions become unshakeable, evidence ceases to be relevant – except as a means to convert the unbelievers. Factual inaccuracies… are excusable in the light of the Higher Truth.” – P.H. HOEBENS
The first is simple, straightforward honest observation, based upon legally proven fact. I hope to see more of it in the near future from Australia, the UK, Italy, and Belgium. It contrasts so beautifully with the obfuscations coming out of Scientology, the “freezone”, Baca, Stone and the entire city government of Clearwater.
The second quote caused me, immediately, to recall much of what you and Aaron have written here.
The third thing that struck me was this passage from Part 2.6 “His Magickal Career”.
“In May, OTO member Louis T. Culling wrote to Crowley’s deputy, Karl Germer, suggesting that Parsons should be “salvaged from the undue influence of another.” He spoke of a partnership agreement signed by Parsons, Hubbard and Sara Northrup “whereby all money earned by the three, for life, is equally divided.”
“There was disquiet in the Ordo Templi Orientis. In a cable to his U.S. deputy, dated May 22, Crowley said, “SUSPECT RON PLAYING CONFIDENCE TRICK, JACK EVIDENTLY WEAK FOOL OBVIOUS VICTIM PROWLING SWINDLERS.” On the 31st, he added, “It seems to me on the information of our Brethren in California that (if we may assume them to be accurate) Frater 210 [Parsons] has committed… errors. He has got a miraculous illumination which rhymes with nothing, and HE HAS APPARENTLY LOST ALL OF HIS PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE. FROM OUR BROTHER’S ACCOUNT HE HAS GIVEN AWAY BOTH HIS GIRL AND HIS MONEY – APPARENTLY IT IS AN ORDINARY CONFIDENCE TRICK.” (Caps: my own.)
Sounds like it was a very successful dress rehearsal of Scientology! Also, what a beautiful definition for both Dianetics and Scientology:
“A MIRACULOUS ILLUMINATION WHICH RHYMES WITH NOTHING.”
I wonder how many “Freezoners” have read this book? Magoo recommends it, highly. Maybe they will read it. They’re lurking out there, your blog proves it.
WOW very interesting stuff here…. and although alex insinuates that aaron is being uncivilized even at aarons worst he is just frustrated at the blatant scientology tactics and the “talking out the ass” – this was a very civil debate even though im sorry alex u are being discredited at every step. i really love this blog and i love reading everyones opinions keep em coming please!!! Happy Canada Day!!!!!!!!!!!
Aaron is talking out of his ass. He used to have so much respect from many fighting the cause when he stuck to what he actually knows and experienced. Sadly his massive ego got in the way and his credibility went right out the window. He then stopped posting at the sites where his bs was called out and left claiming he was withdrawing from the fight. Something he seems to do whenever he is not “the main man” anymore. I respect you Caliwog and enjoy your posts, but you’re being fooled by Aaron as many of us were until we realized that it’s all about his ego and not about fighting the CoS
Hi Anonymous —
I appreciate the comment, and I say the following with all due respect: I chose to post Aaron’s article because it represented an alternative viewpoint with credible reasoning. We may never know exactly what happened at the end of LRH’s life, and I think it’s important to discuss different possibilities. Certainly the evidence that DM is a true believer is strong… and important. “Know thine enemy,” etc.
Whether people agree with Aaron or not, I do have a great deal of admiration for him for coming forward and being very up front and honest about what he did while a member of Co$ management. He put the truth ahead of his own reputation, and he stood up to the Co$ knowing the possible consequences (don’t forget what Bob Minton’s said when they shuddered him into silence: “It was like the Terminator was after you.”).
As someone who has been accused of being an OSA agent for simply pointing out that some Co$ members are happy being Scientologists, I can understand why someone would pull out of the forums. I also think that at some point an ex-Scientologist has to let go of things and get on with his life (something Marty and Mike can’t seem to do).
Let’s not forget that Aaron has stood up to the Church and the Independents unmasked and unafraid, something few of us – including me – have the courage to do. I don’t think Aaron has a particularly huge ego, but if he does, it’s certainly well-deserved. The important thing is that he wants what I want (and what I hope you want): The end to the fraudulent, destructive group that is LRH’s Scientology.
Thanks for hearing me out. I look forward to more of your comments.
Some junk comments here.
Firstly, whatever my ego, whatever I do or say has nothing to do with facts. Stick to what is being pointed towards and look at that. Liking or disliking someone has nothing to do with whether what they are pointing to or saying is in fact, factual. Hatred or disike for a person must be put aside and you must have the ability to view the facts. Whatever happened to me in the movement against the Church means nothing. I am not the first critic to end up being disliked by some of the people in the movement against the Church, however I will point out that the cry babies that compained against me where in fact in the minority who posted and posted until they just pissed me off with their childish apporaches.
And yes, I am ridiculing Alex and others for their idiocy. If they want validation, ten go to Marty or Scientology, they will be glad to accept idiots.
If you want to know what happened during the last days of Hubbard and the power struggle that ensued, read about it from Robert Vaughn Young who was actually there. Where were you during this time Aaron to make the claims you have?
This blog is a very special resource for me. It is open to all. It is not censored. It is a place for discussion, where all civilly expressed viewpoints, observations and opinions can be shared and debated freely. It is a very, very special place for us denizens of the WOG world.
That being said, I have to disagree with your stated opinions. I have found Mr. Saxton’s contributions to be lucid, cogent, and three dimensional, in that he always sees beyond the surface, and into the depth of things. He seems to be very “up-front” about his sources, and whether they are first or second hand, whether they are from direct observation or documentation that he has read. I also appreciate that he separates his observations from his opinions.
No, I don’t take his word at face value. No, I don’t always agree with him, but we often learn more from discussing freely with people with whom we do not agree. What is to be gained by debating only with those whom we know to be of like viewpoint?
Take a look at Marty’s blog. They discuss nothing. Debate is not tolerated. All they do is whine, love-bomb each other, and reinforce each others’ delusions. The great delusion that they all prop up is Marty’s delusion of Adequacy, but, I digress…
I am, also, not a fan of WWP. You have some odd ducks flying around in the high ozone, over there. Moreover, many of those fowl are foul (mouthed, that is)! Maybe a whiff of good old O2, and some healthy and civil debate would help their poor little brains.
I do want to thank you for the link to Robert Vaughn Young’s historical account. That was truly awesome. Just keep sharing your part of the elephant. We will listen. Then we will discuss and learn.
Hey, here’s a link for you:
Was I there with LRH? No, I was not.
I have spoken to many people who were – right back to the early 60’s.
Have you worked with DM? Inger? Yager? Starkey?
Have you read the FOs and other orders I have, no.
But I will do my best to inform you of what I know from what I have read from LRH and others.
Bottom line though, regardless of the power struggle, the question is, whether or not Scientology actually changed with the new mgmt.
The answer? No.
Remember, while others would have you think that the 80’s reshuffle was “huge” it was not compared to earlier reshuffles.
There was Saint Hill, there was the Central Org, there was HCO WW, there was the Sea Project , then the SO, then the SO took control of Scientology, then the SO changed it structure several times before LRH’s death.
It has always been screwed up.
And when I say “spoken” to the people there in the VERY early days I mean face to face, not anything they have written that they could get sued for.
You would honestly be surprised by the severe shame many of them feel when they tell the tale of what they did; what they allowed; and what they did to their friends.
Some write books, but the most telling tales are always from those who confide in you the most intimate of details.
The shame is great. And you have not heard what I have. Having said that, I am not up to repeating it either. Promises were made.
If you want to go target a freak or a liar, go target Marty.
I don’t deserve to be targeted unless of course I have ridiculed someone – like a stupid LRH applying dickwad. Oops, there I go again…
Thanks RB but I have no desire to read Marty’s blog. I did when he first started out but soon realized that he is not going to tell anything he knows about the crimes committed within the CoS
In the spirit of, “Good advice costs nothing, and it’s usually worth the same,” I offer this:
Never argue with an idiot. They will just try to drag you down to their level, and pummel you with their delusions.
Or, as a wise old soul once said, “When a fool’s argument flares, the wise man quenches it with silence.”
Don’t let the bastards grind you down.
Of course, you can always reply in your best Latin (and WAAAAY UP on the Tone Scale),
“Vescere bracis meis!” (Eat my shorts!) 😀
You missed the entire point.
Why am I not surprised?
Robert, your dead right. Good advice, and I will take it.
To Anonymous :
I am uncertain why it is so important to know of the crimes committed by the C of S?
They were not done by a corporation – they were done by individuals.
So what is the point of “the crimes of C of S”?
they are already known crimes:
With-holding evidence from the police in criminal investigation…
The list goes on.
But what is the point?
We can not ask the authorities to go into a corporation and prevent these crimes, as they are legal under the guise of religion.
I say this because we must wake up and see that crimes liek these occur with governments, corporations, gangs, cults – the list goes on.
The best chance is to get no one practicing Scientology.
The bottom line is it is all about individual decisions we all make. T ensure we make the right decisions is it important that we remove the argument which makes these actions possible.
We do not require Scientology in this world.
But to stop Scientology legally is impossible. Education like what WWP does is unstoppable. And is the way.
Only ex-Scios really disagree with WWP if at all because they dislike being shown what plain idiots they were and still are for following Scientology; whereas a rational person who has not yet steppe din never will after seeing the info posted by WWP etc.
It should also be noted that Marty’s blog is so stupid and so silly, and the pro Scientology comments on ESMB, that rational people will read them and see them for what they are – the words of deluded people. And they will not fall for it.
But there will always be percentage of people that will be suckers for Scientology, low I.Q.’s/uneducated or severely hurt and nowhere to go (but with money).
One way to stop Scientology is to simply educate the public – as they have been.
Scientology is already mud, and I assume their numbers are dwindling. Probably in one-two generations this stuff will be mostly gone.
Thank goodness for the internet, because without it, no one would really know the truth about Scientology – and more importantly, the idiots that execute the orders of other idiots – Scientologists.
>Thanks RB but I have no desire to read Marty’s blog.
As a protester, I consider Marty’s blog to be required reading. It’s a great reminder that a) the Co$ is not the only set of criminals and b) exactly how deluded the True Believers of LRH can be.
Oh, and it provides *GREAT* fodder for people like me who run their own blogs. 🙂
This is probably old news to you, but I just stumbled upon it while tracing down a link from mbm over at WBM’s site.
“WHAT WAS MARTY’S ROLE IN TRYING TO STOP THE AUSTRALIAN INQUIRY?” – – WHAT?
There is even a reply by “Hiz Hollowness” hiz self, and a link to hiz bog, sorry, blog.
Holy entheta, Batman! Marty’s not our friend? Who’d-a-thunk such a thang uv sech a nice Texus boy?
Krytonanon had an interesting reply on this thread:
“Someone notify John Sweeney of Bbc (sic) and let him know of Rathburn’s (sic) comments/doings. It could be media suicide for John to sink too deep into Marty’s web.” – – I think that this is EXCELLENT advice! (assuming that the assertions are true, and, frankly, I think that they just might be.)
Caliwog, any thoughts on any of this? I’d really like to hear them! Is there proof of this? What are its implications to all concerned?
Aaron? Mirna? b^ob? Ohbuddy? That invitation includes all of you SP’s (Sentient Persons) out there.
Caliwog, I know that you and Aaron don’t share my opinion, but I still believe that Marty sees himself as Julius Caesar, with his legions poised upon the banks of the Rubicon. Yes, he’s delusional, but the old SOB is BUILDING ASSAULT BRIDGES. I believe that his tiny mind has delusions of his triumphal return to the halls of power of a “church” not fatally damaged by legal proceedings. I do believe that this man is dangerous.
Anyone so deluded is always dangerous, at least to himself. With “legions” of equally deluded “true believers” under his command, I shudder to think of what he might accomplish. It appears that he is, already, manipulating the press, if not outright using it. What is “Next”?
I know a fair bit about Marty, the BBC and other media outlets. But I cannot disclose what I know.
I do not think Marty is dangerous, he does not have very many people following him. I am probably counted on his web hits as well as others. Lots of comments, from the same people over and over.
What happened in Australia and other parts of the world are far more effective than anything Marty has ever done.
Remember, his crowd is stirred and spurred on by each other. Outside that blog, what is really happening?
Jack Shit is what.
And FYI, the press are using him. They are well aware the guy is deluded beyond belief. While he thinks they are running with his story, it only adds to the stupidity of the subject of Scientology. Just take a look at it from the viewpoint of a person seeing what Marty says – and then comparing what they have heard about Scientology. A person hearing Marty say “Scientology has been hijacked” does not ring true.
It is entertaining though, and the media has only one goal – sell more television. It has nothing to do with “giving the people the truth”.
I feel you know this anyways and your post was pointing out what Marty tried to do to the Australian matter. Yes, he did try to interfere, and he failed. I and others made very sure of that at the time.
Forgive my presumption, but I figured that I could count on you for a candid and lucid reply. Thanks.
It’s not easy for me to admit to paranoia, but I guess that this would be the time. You are much closer to the principals in this soap opera than I am, so I trust your observations.
Re: Your first response:
Yeah, Marty’s blog has a lot of repeat hitters, but it still seems huge compared to Caliwog’s Blog (just starting) or even well established blogs like XenuTV. I will admit that the level of intelligence displayed on these two blogs is far greater than that displayed on Marty’s, but that is part of what bothers me. On Marty’s blog, one person whines and 50 people love-bomb him. One person questions and 30 people shout him down! There is no THINKING going on. It’s all conditioned, rote stimulus/response. When knee-jerk reflexes take the place of reason, it is always potentially dangerous.
I place this squarely on Marty’s narrow shoulders. There are stages in recovery from a cult, just as there are stages in recovery from grief. One must work through them. Marty does not allow this to happen. He is an enabler. He arrests the development of his flock, by encouraging them to become stuck in an intermediate stage, and never press through all of the way to real freedom. He attempts to keep their minds and wills malleable to his manipulation. I cannot begin to describe the extent to which that angers and disgusts me! Little wonder that I worry that he might be successful.
Re: Your second response:
Now, this one is really interesting to me. The press is using Marty. What a lovely thought! Mr. Sweeney has not bought-in to the “Marty-as-Martyr” farce? As you say, it is all about the money and the ratings; it has nothing to do with the truth. So, how will they use the info that Marty Is shoveling at them? Well, as long as they use it, and don’t actually buy into Marty’s bull shit, then the next few weeks could be really interesting.
Ahh, the crux of the matter. The little rat bastard did try to scuttle the Australian Investigation. Suspicions confirmed! Thank you for your part in scuttling his treachery.
Sorry if I seemed paranoid, but in the spirit of our Independence Day, remember:
“The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance.”
Hey, Ohbuddy, Happy (Belated) Canada Day! Sorry I missed you.
@ rb – thanks friend and happy july 4th to u im sure that is where u are..don’t worry about sounding paranoid its just what u saw in your view at that time and aaron is seeing it from the other side with i beleive more information then u or me can gather…your preception of marty is exactly what i was thinking and then aaron comes along and clears it all up for me…..i still feel marty is aiming for “church” leader in some form even if its a lofty goal in a delusional mind…ive been away for a while seems i have lots to catch up on
I just got back from the fireworks show, and saw your reply! Thanks.
I’m not really “worried” about sounding paranoid, but I am concerned about being an alarmist in the face of tenuous information. That’s why I voiced my concerns, and my questions. That is, also, why I did it HERE. I knew that I would get some answers to think upon. Also, it isn’t just a question of Aaron having more information, but BETTER information. He has been much closer to the principal players on all sides of this space opera than I have.
I do trust Aaron’s judgment, and value his opinions. I am willing to concede that the M&M brothers are not the danger that I thought them to be, but I’m not completely convinced that they are not still dangerous. I can’t quite disregard them, yet. I believe that they are causing considerable psychological harm to their “flock”. Also, I am old enough to remember when a dweeb named George Wallace won the governorship of Alabama, when no one thought that he could. (Sorry about the obscure U.S. political reference.) So, I tend to be wary of delusional fools with messianic complexes, like Marty and Mike (& DM & TC & …).
At the risk of sounding like a love-bombing Scilon, or freakzoner, Damn, I love this freakin’ blog! Everybody, keep sharing your part of the elephant! We’ll get this critter figured out, yet!
Thanks to ALL
HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed, from time to time, with the blood of patriots and TYRANTS. It is its natural manure.” Thomas Jefferson. (Guess which tyrants I’d like to nominate for fertilizer.)
I have question for Alex, if he is still around.
According to Ron Savelo; “the brain is a shock absorber, thats all it is, a shock absorber”.
Does this piece of OT V data jibe with your beliefs? please check out the link below to hear and see Ron explain to us how the “brain is a shock absorber”.
@ johnny d,
LRH is a genius! Thousands of hours of study by accredited doctors pale in comparison to the pure mental, not using his brain because it is a shock absorber, aptitude of LRH. Why the hell did I waste my time reading my high school biology text book when LRH had the real answers!? Damn you public school system, where was my Applied Scholastics?!
Could you imagine the bat shit insane people that would come out if there really was Applied Scholastics in all the schools. Scary, creepy and sad.
How could any educated person, having made it out of high school, believe this claptrap? In all seriousness, what is it in Scientology that allows you to check your critical thinking at the door?
B^ob: It’s bait-and-switch. First steps of LRH tech contain proven psychotherapy so they work. But LRH takes all the credit. Once you believe he has all the answers, you will swallow amazingly huge amounts of claptrap.
Question: If the brain is a shock absorber,and my car needs shock absorbers, and I can’t get to the garage until Wednesday… I mean, as a temporary solution, mind you… heh, I said “mind.”
@Aaron – Marty “being used” is something I’ve been wondering about… Remember that clip he posted of John Sweeny being tailed by PIs? And his whole crowd rejoiced over Sweeny using the phrase “Independent Scientologist”? I had the feeling then that Sweeny was just trolling the investigators…
@Caliwog – Keep up the good work!
@Alex – You’re still here? And even after all this time you still can’t give a straight answer? I’d hoped that talking to people with genuine critical thinking skills that some of it might have rubbed off…
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I must say thank you chaps for presenting a highly stimulating and thought provoking thread to read. Perhaps if you dropped the personal digs the typos would vanish too. It seems LRH considered himself far and away the most intelligent man alive, vastly underestimating at least all those writing on this page.Amazing he should fail to forsee the immense transformations to arrive with this wonderful internet (still in its infancy even now).According to his own rigid rules, org communications should still be produced on a ‘mimeo’ machine, whereas we know any directive from any exec could be sent direct to and saved on the pc of every staff member within seconds of creation.
I was highly amused by Peter Strode’s analysis of OT3 against actual geological facts. Laughable.
I got to thinking who on Earth would I have chosen as successor to LRH if I had been him. That’s a real hard question. I never met many at high echelons (though many of them expedited or did amends projects in my area while on their way up or down). The right person would need to have compassion yet still be able to blow away without a qualm former seniors, heroes, role-models, family members and friends, yet also ensure all his/her orders were free of motivation for personal aggrandizement and peccadillos. Best I could come up with were Pamela Hurwitz or Gerri Staley!
One day during Ron’s first ridiculous Birthday Game (How the hell can an auditor with 60 Well Done Auditing Hours in a week possibly prove her lack of CI to Command Intention to get 5X by producing 300 WDAHS in a week that even for an OT contains a maximum of 168 hours?)my senior Bernie Radburn got us all line-charging when he rushed in to Treasury and told us straightfaced that a telex just in from Ron said Scientology had all been a joke and we were all free to go home now.
Anyway, I have been enjoying your highly intelligent exchanges. Carry on!
Sadly because of health reasons I find hard to blow away by will power, I see my own physical end approaching. I’m past hard feelings about anything I experienced in Scn.I still find most of you high on my list of 100000 people I was most glad to meet and I’d enjoy meeting every one of you again (even if that meant a sore arse or smarting face for a tiny few.)
I just hope you can get these fantastic wits and intellectual resources working in co-operation against the real arseholes behind the suffering of so many millions every day.
I am still waiting for one show of ANY Ot power or Clear power. $500,000 up for grabs and no takers.
Where are all those anon experts who made comments earlier? You know, the ones that can not point out any thread I posted, statement I made or message in a protest that turned out to be a lie???
And I am glad to be in the top 100,000. In all my lifetimes (going back 76 Trillion years at an average of 50 years per body that makes me feel very special to know out of 1,5 00,000,000,000 odd lifetime (give or take) i was one of the top 100,000.
I am blushing.
Oh, and in addition, I stopped posting on ESMB because it was full of bat-shit crazy Scientologists. I never posted much on WWP anyways except in the early days under another name.
What Aaron saxton reports can be matched with some other reprots of reliable people who worked with or took care of Ron.
As an example, the part he mention about ron being an old sick man is reported by the nurse that took care of him before he died!
It has been aloso reported that Ron wanted Miscavige to take over his leadership as he was the only one that could stand in front of him and express his disagreement.
And I would add that the comment of Alex shows clearly the ”dead agent” stupid technique used in scientology…I mean only stupid person can be effect of it…not see the game they play! You speak – we degrade you reputation! It’s so old and known..they should try another strategy! lol
Thank you Mr Saxton for this story!
I wnow you have benne true because some other reliable people reported about the same. I would really appreciate some other stories that wyou maight have from first hand! This should be a valuable legacy to leave for the furtur – as true record are too much rare!
I would have so much unanswered question to ask!
Thank you very much for freely speaking – without any hate or ressentment- no matter what anyone could say, we are able to fell and judge the content and intention of your words!
Everywhere the is a bit of free speaking arising, you bet there will be a cult robot trying to dead agent the speaker – trying to attack or degrade you as a being or make your intention as evil as the one that has be enforces in his own mind! (Ron did good about that..his policies of dead agent and fair games are really put into alle cult member mind) ! I really find it sad…really sad – it’s far to one freedom!
Anyway- thank’s for speaking no matter!
I do not know about LRHs final days – Jesse Prince and others are really informed on this.
I have spoken to people who personally worked, saw and knew LRH on the ship and even his own auditor. The reports are seamless, they report a man who they still respect, but who did things that were inhuman – and they condoned it on the basis of the greatest good for the greatest number…
What we read about Ron, what we are told of his courage int he earlier days is a cover for a very bent human being who relied on good words to win over people he never met rather than his actions which were cloaked by CMO and his personal aids.
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We know tat LRH was the most prolific science fiction writer and a genius for imaginative narration; but at some point he indeed drank his own cool aide.
But was he as comfortably cruel as DM is? Well, LRH created the RPF; but would he ever do pull a Bohemian Rhapsody musical chair [torture session?]
I guess what I am asking, has not DM taken human cruelty to a much higher level and LRH ever did? LRH usually amnestied his SP’s so long as they had not blown. It seems that DM is quantumly more cruel than LRH, but an old-timer would know more.